Insurance advice after **** day

[sailorman]

better skipper though!

same result

 

[Spyro]

i seem to be under siege from so called sailors!
i was simply trying to raise a valid issue about taking a proactive approach to managing the risks to ones own property. i understand that this may be controversial and not the norm but i (maybe stupidly) expected at least some support for my position.
i am sure that these yards who state that "any damage, including lifting in and out, is the responsibility of the owner" could be in for a serious legal challenge any time soon. equally, i am sure that insurance companies are going to be increasingly reluctant to pay-out on damage to boats occurring in these yards.

i dont mean to be unduly critical of the wanderer, his was just an unfortunate plight used to raise a point of interest.

Have you actually read all the posts?
I was giving you the benifit of the doubt about not having really understood which boat was Clyde Wanderers and which one was at fault.
Now you are just being offensive by referring to people as "so called sailors"

 

[viago]

Have you actually read all the posts?
I was giving you the benifit of the doubt about not having really understood which boat was Clyde Wanderers and which one was at fault.

i have tried to be polite by ignoring the crass remarks about how well the wanderers boat is propped.
what is it you guys dont get about my point? i can only assume you are being deliberately obtuse.
once again, making it simple yet again: if you park your boat next to other boats that are not well propped, or if others park their boats badly next to yours and you say nothing then i believe that that lack of action by you to be "reckless" behaviour.
now does anyone have the wherewithal to discuss my point rather than twittering on about how well clyde parked his boat?

 

[Spyro]

Have you actually read all the posts?
I was giving you the benifit of the doubt about not having really understood which boat was Clyde Wanderers and which one was at fault.

i have tried to be polite by ignoring the crass remarks about how well the wanderers boat is propped.
what is it you guys dont get about my point? i can only assume you are being deliberately obtuse.
once again, making it simple yet again: if you park your boat next to other boats that are not well propped, or if others park their boats badly next to yours and you say nothing then i believe that that lack of action by you to be "reckless" behaviour.
now does anyone have the wherewithal to discuss my point rather than twittering on about how well clyde parked his boat?

Sorry I didn't realise you were saying it was Clyde Wanderer's fault because a boat that parked next to him wasn't propped correctly .
I'm now done with twittering.

 

[bignick]

i have tried to be polite by ignoring the crass remarks about how well the wanderers boat is propped.
what is it you guys dont get about my point? i can only assume you are being deliberately obtuse.
once again, making it simple yet again: if you park your boat next to other boats that are not well propped, or if others park their boats badly next to yours and you say nothing then i believe that that lack of action by you to be "reckless" behaviour.
now does anyone have the wherewithal to discuss my point rather than twittering on about how well clyde parked his boat?

Where's the troll smilie when you need one? 16 posts and this???

 

[sailorman]

Where's the troll smilie when you need one? 16 posts and this???

 

[bignick]

That's the one. I wonder how effective it is?

 

[Morven]

I think I asked the same question around a 100 posts ago, which yard was it?

 

[viago]

Sorry I didn't realise you were saying it was Clyde Wanderer's fault because a boat that parked next to him wasn't propped correctly .
I'm now done with twittering.

thank you, at last. yes! that is almost what im saying. in the same way that taking a boat on a passage when a f10 is forecast probably is too.
for my pains im now accused of trolling and no doubt the cries of blasphemy and excommunication are to follow.
its possible that the wanderer approached the yard management and expressed his concerns in writing, it is also possible that he addressed the issues with the offending boat owners, in which case his behaviour could not be judged "reckless".
insurance companies are not going to ignore these "accidendts waiting to happen" forever.

 

[Spyro]

thank you, at last. yes! that is almost what im saying. in the same way that taking a boat on a passage when a f10 is forecast probably is too.
for my pains im now accused of trolling and no doubt the cries of blasphemy and excommunication are to follow.
its possible that the wanderer approached the yard management and expressed his concerns in writing, it is also possible that he addressed the issues with the offending boat owners, in which case his behaviour could not be judged "reckless".
insurance companies are not going to ignore these "accidendts waiting to happen" forever.

Think you missed my sarcastic smilie. Dam I said I was done twittering

 

[viago]

Just out of interest where is that as where I am no yacht is allowed to have the mast up unless it is on a cradle or has bilge keels.

thank you morven, this illustrates my point in that there is already established a "good practice" protocol. i know of one other yard which requires that all long/fin keelers are kept in approved cradles.
i can see these examples of good practice being used by insurers as the splinter of proof they need to renegue on satisfying a claim

 

[awol]

[: if you park your boat next to other boats that are not well propped, or if others park their boats badly next to yours and you say nothing then i believe that that lack of action by you to be "reckless" behaviour.

You are indeed fortunate to have the skills and experience to be able to differentiate good and bad propping from a glance at a photograph. I imagine you would also regard as negligent those owners whose boats were damaged on Grenada by hurricane Ivan. Luckily their insurers didn't.

Hurricane Bawbag was an exceptional occurrence. The surprise was how little damage was sustained. No doubt the yards will have reviewed their practices in light of the experience and the methods they have used successfully for many years will be modified.

I, and most posters on here, feel nothing but sympathy for Clyde_Wanderer and I find your attribution of blame to him for his predicament offensive.

 

[PeteCooper]

So in an anchorage I am supposed to check everybody else's ground tackle to make sure that my boat will be safe? In a marina I must check all my neighbour's moorings so that my boat can't be damaged?
Perhaps when in a car park I should ensure that all the cars near mine have the handbrake on correctly?

 

[A1Sailor]

I too have had fin-keel yachts in yards where one could only leave the mast up if the yacht was in a steel cradle.
If the yacht that fell onto CW's wasn't adequately propped, how can it be the fault of CW; or even the owner of "the yacht that fell to earth"? When paying for a service, is one not entitled to that being carried out to an acceptable standard? Is there a code of practice for yards? What do the yards' 3rd party liability insurance policies state? I presume they have this... Is their "if we f**k up it's your fault" get out clause reasonable?
It all depends on the definitions.


Edit:
If you look at the image below there is a boat still upright! If you look to the left of the "telephone pole" in the foreground you'll see it. It is the one without a mast...

 

[viago]

You are indeed fortunate to have the skills and experience to be able to differentiate good and bad propping from a glance at a photograph.

yes i do, we all do. i would go so far as to suggest that if you asked a class of 5 year olds "which boats were held up most securely" the answer would be 90% the cradle!
its not rocket science. so cut the cr*p

 

[viago]

I, and most posters on here, feel nothing but sympathy for Clyde_Wanderer and I find your attribution of blame to him for his predicament offensive.

if you stand in a thicket during a thunderstorm and get struck by lightning then even i might feel sympathy but are you entirely without blame?
if you parked your car in a supermarket next to a battered white van and returned to find a ding in you drivers door, could you not have anticipated that?

as a nation we have a great disregard for the "health and safety executive" but we need one because of our reluctance to take personal responsibility for risk assessment. you seem to confuse assessing a risk which is clear to see- as in the case of poorly secured loads- and a risk which cant be assessed- as in the case or "ground tackle".
in the case of a hurricane in granada, imagine the freakish nature of that particular weather phenomenon occurring in that neck of the woods!

as a matter of interest, who pays the storage costs whilst poor clyde wanderers matter is dealt with?

 

[awol]

if you stand in a thicket during a thunderstorm and get struck by lightning then even i might feel sympathy but are you entirely without blame?
if you parked your car in a supermarket next to a battered white van and returned to find a ding in you drivers door, could you not have anticipated that?

as a nation we have a great disregard for the "health and safety executive" but we need one because of our reluctance to take personal responsibility for risk assessment. you seem to confuse assessing a risk which is clear to see- as in the case of poorly secured loads- and a risk which cant be assessed- as in the case or "ground tackle".
in the case of a hurricane in granada, imagine the freakish nature of that particular weather phenomenon occurring in that neck of the woods!

as a matter of interest, who pays the storage costs whilst poor clyde wanderers matter is dealt with?

A hurricane damaging yachts in Granada would indeed have been freakish! As for Grenada, it was regarded by insurance companies as a safe (and recommended) refuge for the hurricane season until Hurricane Ivan came along. Hurricane Bawbag gave sustained winds of 130kph with higher gusts where Hummingbird was parked - was that a foreseeable risk? Were those responsible for trees, power lines, buildings, roofs, roads, railways, bridges and sea defences (all damaged at that time) negligent? As with all such phenomena the "must never happen again" lobby get involved - however, most just review their practices and inspection regimes and up their game. I'm not arguing that a properly constructed and set up cradle may not be superior to props, oildrums and wedges but the incidence of failure over many more years than you have been involved in sailing has been extremely small, otherwise it simply would not be done. The cause of the boat falling on Hummingbird was not necessarily primarily due to the style of support but may have been another cause e.g. supports moved for antifouling and not replaced as before (just an example, you understand) and was certainly exacerbated by a truly exceptional wind.
Will shoring practices change? Probably not, but the risks of keeping masts stepped may be given more consideration.

 

[A1Sailor]

as a matter of interest, who pays the storage costs whilst poor clyde wanderers matter is dealt with?

I would imagine he does. Of greater interest is that if Hummingbird is not repaired by 1st March, due to various insurers arguing and not making a decision, and thorough no fault of his own he loses sailing time can he then charter a yacht and bill the guilty party's insurance company?
The problem, of course, is deciding who "the guilty party" is. It ain't he!

 

[awol]

Another one .....

During the early hours of Sunday 3 December 06 a storm hit Plymouth. It was about 4.30am when a gust of about 75kts from the South West caused havoc at Queen Anne’s Battery Marina.
Yachts on cradles were blown down like packs of cards right outside the offices of Pantaenius Yacht Insurance. Barrie Sullivan, managing director of Pantaenius UK says that it was very lucky nobody was hurt and that it is not acceptable that 23 boats stored out of the water at a marina should be damaged as a result of a 75kt gust.

Note the wind speed and the word "cradles" - not an oildrum in sight!

 

[viago]

ok guys, you win! thank you for clearing this question up for me (at last). i remember the incident at qab well, but was unaware that the yachts involved were in cradles. i have seen various supporting solutions employed there.
i note the "not acceptable" quote from the insurance guy which is kind of my point.
does anyone know the particulars?
my apologies to anyone who may have been upset by my controversial stance and stay safe.