jellylegs
Well-Known Member
Any suggestions on what make to go for? I want a fully (vertical) battened sail, I know that.
In mast reefing, Centaur.
- Thread starter jellylegs
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Tranona
Well-Known Member
Not a good idea. Add on in mast furling has just about disappeared from the market as it was not entirely trouble free. It is much better to have a new mast and system - but that will cost nearly as much as the boat is worth.
The benefits of in mast do not really show until the boat is 32ft+. Up to that size a well designed single line reefing mainsail is perfectly adequate. If your Centaur has the original rolling boom reefing it is easy to convert to single line and lazyjacks/stackpack using off the shelf hardware from Barton and the sail and stackpack made/modified by your local sailmaker.
It is possible to get in boom reefing, but again the cost is disproportionate to the boat and usually means a new mainsail. Like add on reefing, they have not become popular - mainly on the grounds of cost in relation to the claimed benefits.
The benefits of in mast do not really show until the boat is 32ft+. Up to that size a well designed single line reefing mainsail is perfectly adequate. If your Centaur has the original rolling boom reefing it is easy to convert to single line and lazyjacks/stackpack using off the shelf hardware from Barton and the sail and stackpack made/modified by your local sailmaker.
It is possible to get in boom reefing, but again the cost is disproportionate to the boat and usually means a new mainsail. Like add on reefing, they have not become popular - mainly on the grounds of cost in relation to the claimed benefits.
sailorman
Well-Known Member
Elemental
Well-Known Member
What a useful post.why make a slow boat go slower
1. It may not go slower. Many boats get much/most of their drive via the genoa.
2. Perhaps the OP wants a sail plan that is easier to handle than slab reefing
3. Look around, and see how many cruisers nowadays have in mast furling.
It's not perfect and certianly not perfect for all boats / skippers - but it has it's place.
However, I would question the 'requirement' for vertical battens. For two reasons.
1. Many sailmaker don't really like or recommend vertical battens. The scope for terminal jamming problems is greatly increased.
2. That the OP feels he wants them may suggest to me that he wants to retain some of the sail control that you can't really get with furling mains. They're very flat and it's hard to get much twist for example.
Can't comment on retro fit systems, but I have heard that they can be problematic
DanTribe
Well-Known Member
I would strongly recomend that you try and cadge a sail on a similiar sized boat that has one of these fitted, before investing time and money.
No doubt some are very good but some are 'orrible.
My boat [31ft] had one fitted when I bought it and I persevered for 2 yrs before dumping it and reverting to slab reefing. So much better and easier to use.
To be fair it was useful when packing the boat up, just pull one string and it's all away. It only jambed on 3 occasions but that was because I tried to reef in strong winds.
V1701
Well-Known Member
An Easy Reef in-mast system and their Maxi Roach vertically battened main would suit. I had exactly that on last boat (1989 Jeanneau Sun -Dream 28). It worked reasonably well, never jammed but you do have to get the boom angle right before you wind in the sail, though I kind of got the feeling that it wasn't quite as easy as it should have been. It was nice to be able to do everything without going up to the mast but you can relatively easily set up the boat to do that anyway, albeit without the ability to fine tune the reefing like you get with in-mast. I don't know how it affected performance as the boat came with it, I think the extra weight up top would have a greater effect on performance than would the sail itself. When I bought that boat I thought I'd end up removing it, didn't but I wouldn't fit one through choice I have to say, what you'd pay would far outweigh any gain...
GrahamM376
Well-Known Member
I would also worry about the extra weight up the mast. When I fitted radar and Firdell Blipper to our Centaur, it made a noticeable difference to roll.
Tranona
Well-Known Member
Yes, additional weight is another issue - the extrusion and roller mechanism weighs nearly as much as a whole mast. Custom made in mast reefing spars are much lighter (although you still have the weight of the sail aloft when furled).
To me, however even a custom in mast on a boat like a Centaur is rather a waste when conventional slab reefing is easy and effective. It does, however, make sense on larger boats where the marginal loss in performance is easily offset by the ease of handling, and particularly the ability to fine tune sail area to conditions.
charles_reed
Well-Known Member
I have to agree with Tranona on this - most modern boats, fitted with in mast reefing have a sailplan to make up for the loss of roach.
Having single-line reefing definitely makes sail-handling easier, though one still has the effort of lifting the main in the first place. I have two on my boat.
Unless money is no object the OP's proposal makes on economic sense - the cost of new mast and reefing gear will be more than the boat can fetch. Retrofit external mast reefing would be inadvisable, all to whom I've spoken, with any experience of it, have had few good words to say.
Having single-line reefing definitely makes sail-handling easier, though one still has the effort of lifting the main in the first place. I have two on my boat.
Unless money is no object the OP's proposal makes on economic sense - the cost of new mast and reefing gear will be more than the boat can fetch. Retrofit external mast reefing would be inadvisable, all to whom I've spoken, with any experience of it, have had few good words to say.
KellysEye
Well-Known Member
>1. It may not go slower. Many boats get much/most of their drive via the genoa.
We've had the misfortune to sail a number of charter boats with inmast furling. Upwind performance, in technical terms, is total cr*p because of the flat sail and thus no curved slot with the genoa.
We've had the misfortune to sail a number of charter boats with inmast furling. Upwind performance, in technical terms, is total cr*p because of the flat sail and thus no curved slot with the genoa.
mickywillis
Well-Known Member
Zara, our 1970 Westerly Pageant, has a Facnor mast furling system fitted.
Fitted with a set of Crusader sails, it all functions very well (not had a seizure or jam since we have owned it) and the beauty is that you don't go anywhere near the mast to put the mainsail up or down. All done from the cockpit with just 2 ropes. Makes reefing really easy (especially in choppy seas) and the reefing is infinately variable to suit the conditions. Coupled with the furling genoa, the set up works well.
Alright, she may be a fraction slower than a Pageant with slab reefing, but as a first boat for us, the in mast system really has been a joy to use.
May not be everyones tast, but each to their own.
In fact if you are a solo sailer, then in mast is definately an option to look into.
Fitted with a set of Crusader sails, it all functions very well (not had a seizure or jam since we have owned it) and the beauty is that you don't go anywhere near the mast to put the mainsail up or down. All done from the cockpit with just 2 ropes. Makes reefing really easy (especially in choppy seas) and the reefing is infinately variable to suit the conditions. Coupled with the furling genoa, the set up works well.
Alright, she may be a fraction slower than a Pageant with slab reefing, but as a first boat for us, the in mast system really has been a joy to use.
May not be everyones tast, but each to their own.
In fact if you are a solo sailer, then in mast is definately an option to look into.
BrianH
Well-Known Member
Or In-Boom?
The key here is retro-fit. Most in-mast retro-fit installations are not always suitable. I researched the subject extensively and ended up with a ProFurl in-boom system.
However, no way would I invest either for in-mast or in-boom on a Centaur. Single line reefing with stack-pack and lazy-jacks would be the only sensible solution on such a boat, in my opinion.
In retrospect, it should have been my choice too considering the teething problems I had, which were mainly to do with the original installation and not the system.
Strathglass
Well-Known Member
You can get add on mast mainsail reefing from here -
http://www.sailspar.co.uk/yachtproducts/mainsail.html
I bought my (50ft) mast kit from Sailspar and found them to be totally professional and very obliging.
I have sailed a larger (42ft) yacht with in mast furling and found it made the control of the rig less demanding than slab reefing although the sail setting was not so good and there was quite a loss of speed.
When reefing it was ESSENTIAL that the boom was perpendicular to the mast and that there was virtually no backstay tension.
Adding mast furling to your boat would certainly make it sail slower but it would also make it easier for you to handle.
The choice is up to yourself. It is a case of ballancing the cost with the added advantaged to yourself.
Iain
ghostlymoron
Well-Known Member
Do you have any details of your single line reefing system?
BrianH
Well-Known Member
Erm, I never had one, I made the comment that I should have considered it.
My original system was the traditional ramshorn at the gooseneck and a two line reefing configuration - quite a struggle at the mast trying to reef down in some of the sudden and violent winds we can get in the Adriatic. I knew that as I am usually single-handed I needed something quick and simple that I could operate from the cockpit. I needed a new mainsail anyway and chose the in-boom system with full length batterns. It took two years to get everything right but now it works and sets well. But I regret those two years of having to keep having adjustments made, which is why I think a simple single line reefing system with stackpack would have been the better option.
Moonbeam
Well-Known Member
In mast reefing, Centaur
We have a Centaur with a fully vertical battened Sanders sail. It's a purpose built Z spars boom and selden in mast furling system fitted by the previous owner. The sail sets beautifully and I don't think there is any drop off in performance if you get the set up right. I also think you get a much cleaner sail when it's reefed. No bunches of sail on the boom or stack packs to ruin the air flow over the sail. I've read so many nay sayers on here about in mast furling etc. I have to say, I'd never go back to slab reefing. As long as you get the set up right, you won't have any problems furling or unfurling. Weve used ours for three seasons now and it's really sweet. I shall be going for in-mast furling on our next boat... which i hope the current owner is installing as I type
Stuey
We have a Centaur with a fully vertical battened Sanders sail. It's a purpose built Z spars boom and selden in mast furling system fitted by the previous owner. The sail sets beautifully and I don't think there is any drop off in performance if you get the set up right. I also think you get a much cleaner sail when it's reefed. No bunches of sail on the boom or stack packs to ruin the air flow over the sail. I've read so many nay sayers on here about in mast furling etc. I have to say, I'd never go back to slab reefing. As long as you get the set up right, you won't have any problems furling or unfurling. Weve used ours for three seasons now and it's really sweet. I shall be going for in-mast furling on our next boat... which i hope the current owner is installing as I type
Stuey
jellylegs
Well-Known Member
Thankyou, Stuey. yes, so many expert views that are quite biased and dont answer the question. (I too may have been guilty of this.) I am interested in your mast as i believe Selden dont do add on reefing, so do you have a new mast incorporating the reefing gear? I was thinking about this route.
To be honest I agree with the view that the boat is not really worth it, especially as I wont have all that long, so may go with a new slab reef single line reefing boom.
Still interested in your set up.
To be honest I agree with the view that the boat is not really worth it, especially as I wont have all that long, so may go with a new slab reef single line reefing boom.
Still interested in your set up.
webcraft
Well-Known Member
Tranona
Well-Known Member
Think that is the main message. If you have a properly designed system such as the Selden (which I have on my boat), it is excellent. However, it is uneconomic on a smaller, older boat, and the benefits are not so valuable. Worth having if it is already on the boat and somebody else has already paid for it. An add on sytem is still expensive in relation to the value of the boat, and leaving aside the technical limitations, the benefits over slab reefing are still small.
wklein
Well-Known Member
in mast probelms
I have fitted and maintained many of these systems and my general opinion is this:
Add on systems are useless, and dedicated masts (mechanically)work ok when they are new but once the bearings have worn and the sail has stretch they are more effort than they are worth. This is even more of a problem with vertical battens which as the leech of the sail stretches the battens are no longer vertical and therefore take up extra space in the housing or can shatter resulting in no way of furling / unfurling sail, i have heard of many people having to burn out sail at sea just to drop the sail.
The loss of performance is also noticable as sails have little draught, zero or negative roach, and mast cannot be bent.
Far and away the best solution for you is to go single line reefing but look to spend a it on it, low friction blocks, specialist boom (i personally prefer z-spars setup over more expensive models). I would also go for a decent vang (the barton solid fibreglass one works very well on boats of this size)
Also you should look to get lazyjacks and a stack pack fitted.
You can operate from the cockpit with ease and maintain all of the performance of slab reefing.
I have fitted and maintained many of these systems and my general opinion is this:
Add on systems are useless, and dedicated masts (mechanically)work ok when they are new but once the bearings have worn and the sail has stretch they are more effort than they are worth. This is even more of a problem with vertical battens which as the leech of the sail stretches the battens are no longer vertical and therefore take up extra space in the housing or can shatter resulting in no way of furling / unfurling sail, i have heard of many people having to burn out sail at sea just to drop the sail.
The loss of performance is also noticable as sails have little draught, zero or negative roach, and mast cannot be bent.
Far and away the best solution for you is to go single line reefing but look to spend a it on it, low friction blocks, specialist boom (i personally prefer z-spars setup over more expensive models). I would also go for a decent vang (the barton solid fibreglass one works very well on boats of this size)
Also you should look to get lazyjacks and a stack pack fitted.
You can operate from the cockpit with ease and maintain all of the performance of slab reefing.
