In mast furling vs slab reefing

[capnsensible]

Bearing in mind this is the liveaboard section, slab reefing at the mast has it's attractions for medium /large self reliant boats.

I've been lucky enough to get a lot of experience sailing yachts with in mast furling. Cats and monohulls. Med, Atlantic, Pacific. School yachts. Deliveries. Yadda yadda.

I reckon I've learnt that most of the problems people talk about are imagined rather than real. Perhaps I've just been lucky. But we see dozens of cruising liveaboards pass through every year. Many are Catamarans. Many have easy reefed in mast mainsail. Lots have all sorts of stability altering gantries with all sorts hanging off them including ribs, solar panels, etc. These are people in their hundreds going for comfort, not speed. A few years ago I posted a thread with piccies showing some of them. It's on here somewhere.

Lots have 'windows' in their hulls!

Love these discussions but they do tend to end up walking on the wild side sometimes.....

 

[Chiara’s slave]

I've been lucky enough to get a lot of experience sailing yachts with in mast furling. Cats and monohulls. Med, Atlantic, Pacific. School yachts. Deliveries. Yadda yadda.

I reckon I've learnt that most of the problems people talk about are imagined rather than real. Perhaps I've just been lucky. But we see dozens of cruising liveaboards pass through every year. Many are Catamarans. Many have easy reefed in mast mainsail. Lots have all sorts of stability altering gantries with all sorts hanging off them including ribs, solar panels, etc. These are people in their hundreds going for comfort, not speed. A few years ago I posted a thread with piccies showing some of them. It's on here somewhere.

Lots have 'windows' in their hulls!

Love these discussions but they do tend to end up walking on the wild side sometimes.....

Very much so. Each to their own, on the comfort/convenience/performance 3D graph. I have no long term cruising ambitions, our setup is perfect for what we do, though others might think something else was perfect for doung exactly the same thing. Ours comes, from the factory, with 10k worth of ball race blocks and batten cars, there are no blocks without them. Other boats may not be so equipped. The walk on the wild side, the GPS thread is a great example. The scenes painted there, no sane person would go to sea at all.

 

[RupertW]

You would be surprised. Look at how far they are above the COG, and how heavy gantries in particular are. some also add a wind turbine and raydome on a pole!

I agree. Most production boats have keels and ballast designed for them to be just about stable enough to pass all safety tests with mast, sails etc.

Then people add solar and davits etc. and think a few tools and tins down below will counterbalance. They don’t realise that 100kg 3m above the COG needs 3000kg 10cm below it to counterbalance without decreasing stability.

 

[Tranona]

"Everything should be as simple as possible, but not simpler"- Einstein (allegedly).
Boiling down the reefing system to two lines certainly sounds simple. In the same way that running everything to a single winch via banks of clutches 'looks' simple.
I know boats differ, but my own experience of in-mast was that it required the boom to be perfectly level and the boat to be very close to the wind, far more so than with slab reefed boats I've sailed. So the setup is simple but the operation itself has extra complications. Some people even use the engine every time they reef, just to keep the boat head to wind enough. I presume that's a particularly badly set up example and hope that your experience is better.

You're not the only person who has experienced both.
I don't have extensive experience of in-mast, but the boat I did my day skipper on had it, and I later skippered that boat for another trip around the North Minch for a few days. I've also had to climb a mast to help out an elderly cruiser whose in-mast system had failed, hundreds of miles from home, which left an impression on me.

When it comes to lines led aft, I've had both systems. Led aft works if you have enough space in the cockpit for the lines, and if you have good quality (ballraced) blocks, good lead angles to winches/clutches etc.
We currently have everything at the mast and I have no plans to change. As someone said upthread, a self tailer at the mast is a useful upgrade, because it gives you a hand to hold on with. Reefing at the mast is my idea of 'simple'.

Again the very opposite of my experience of 2 single line at the cockpit and 2 in mast boats.

I admit that age changes one's perspective and I tolerated the slab reefing on my Eventide for 20 years because it was the only boat I had and I spent a lot of time and effort making it work. Buying the first Bavaria was a revelation in more ways than one. Handling a 37' after a little 26' was a doddle. The second one which I bought for my 70th birthday present in 2015 was even easier for single handing with its main dominated fractional rig. Follow the instructions from Selden and unfurling and furling is stress free. Wind 20 degrees off the starboard bow, press the button for the autopilot, unfurl the sail as much as you need, autopilot off and go sailing. Same at the end, get the heading right, autopilot on, furl, keeping some tension on the outhaul.

I am sure you have followed the regular threads on here about problems raising and lowering slab reefed sails with lazy jacks (there was one only last week) or all the little tricks people try to make reefing and dealing with the excess sail easier. Particularly pertinent with my current project which includes building a single line system for my Golden Hind. It is only when you do this you realise how complicated it is compared with 2 lines for in mast, and you are still stuck with a limited choice of 3 (or maybe 4) fixed sail areas. Once you have in mast you can fine tune sail areas to suit conditions much easier with just 2 lines for each sail.

I have never come across anybody with in mast that would go back to slab reefing, but of course many tend to be older and often very experienced who realise the benefits just like me of being able to handle much larger boats with smaller crews than they would otherwise.

BTW the difficulties you found were not uncommon in early examples of some makes of in mast, particularly add ons, but they really don't exist with Selden who have been refining their designs for over 30 years.

 

[Fr J Hackett]

Again the very opposite of my experience of 2 single line at the cockpit and 2 in mast boats.

I admit that age changes one's perspective and I tolerated the slab reefing on my Eventide for 20 years because it was the only boat I had and I spent a lot of time and effort making it work. Buying the first Bavaria was a revelation in more ways than one. Handling a 37' after a little 26' was a doddle. The second one which I bought for my 70th birthday present in 2015 was even easier for single handing with its main dominated fractional rig. Follow the instructions from Selden and unfurling and furling is stress free. Wind 20 degrees off the starboard bow, press the button for the autopilot, unfurl the sail as much as you need, autopilot off and go sailing. Same at the end, get the heading right, autopilot on, furl, keeping some tension on the outhaul.

I am sure you have followed the regular threads on here about problems raising and lowering slab reefed sails with lazy jacks (there was one only last week) or all the little tricks people try to make reefing and dealing with the excess sail easier. Particularly pertinent with my current project which includes building a single line system for my Golden Hind. It is only when you do this you realise how complicated it is compared with 2 lines for in mast, and you are still stuck with a limited choice of 3 (or maybe 4) fixed sail areas. Once you have in mast you can fine tune sail areas to suit conditions much easier with just 2 lines for each sail.

I have never come across anybody with in mast that would go back to slab reefing, but of course many tend to be older and often very experienced who realise the benefits just like me of being able to handle much larger boats with smaller crews than they would otherwise.

BTW the difficulties you found were not uncommon in early examples of some makes of in mast, particularly add ons, but they really don't exist with Selden who have been refining their designs for over 30 years.

You are not the only experienced sailor young or old, we each have our experiences and fixed ideas

 

[Tranona]

You are not the only experienced sailor young or old, we each have our experiences and fixed ideas

Not claiming to be, just putting my experience in context. You are right about fixed ideas, which are only perhaps an issue when they are based on zero experience of what one is criticising or dismissing.

 

[Roberto]

Can a mainsail furler be used while sailing downwind, furl/unfurl without changing course?

 

[Chiara’s slave]

Can a mainsail furler be used while sailing downwind, furl/unfurl without changing course?

I might well struggle with that, in spite of my Fredriksen cars and ball race blocks. But I can still sail to windward with 3 reefs in the main, the shape is unchanged. True of all slab reefing, on mast or single line. I can’t see a 3 reef sized in mast main being able to do that.

 

[Roberto]

I might well struggle with that, in spite of my Fredriksen cars and ball race blocks. But I can still sail to windward with 3 reefs in the main, the shape is unchanged. True of all slab reefing, on mast or single line. I can’t see a 3 reef sized in mast main being able to do that.

I do not know trimarans well, apparent wind behaves so differently with regards to monohulls so I have no idea about what can or cannot be done; on my boat (40' awb) I never luff to reef or unreef, in particular with strong winds: no point in getting all of a sudden +10-15kt apparent wind while at the same time heading into -often- big waves at reduced speed, so with less manoeuverability. 140-150° to true wind is usually plenty enough. I think it can be very different on a multihull.
I sailed on very few boats with furling mainsails and it was some years ago, modifications of sail areas had to be done at a given narrow angle to the wind, the boom had to be kept in the appropriate vertical position, the tension on the clew boom traveler line had to be finely adjusted, on one boat it was possible to furl on only one given tack while heading into the wind, etc etc. Of course it can be perfectly suitable, sometimes not.
Do more recent mainsail furling systems allow to modify the sail area in a wider array of conditions, in particular while sailing downwind?

 

[Baggywrinkle]

Can a mainsail furler be used while sailing downwind, furl/unfurl without changing course?

Yes .... mine did.

Ease off a foot or so on the outhaul, wind it in, rinse and repeat.

To increase sail, keep tension on the furler, put the outhaul on the winch and pull out more sail, releasing the furl line as the sail comes out.

 

[doug748]

We are planning to buy a 43-45' cruising boat such as the Jeanneau 43DS and one of the key requirements I have listed is in-mast furling. There is only my wife and myself, and my wife doesn't really sail, anyway, so I have to be able to do everything single-handed in all weathers. For this reason I decided that in-mast furling was essential. However, I've never had slab-reefing led back to the cockpit and I've never had in-mast furling, either. I've always had to clamber on deck to the mast.

A couple of nice fairly new boats have appeared for sale with slab rather than in-mast. Should I consider them? The specs are such that it seems likely that the owner preferred slab. Any advice welcomed, please.

<hr width=100% size=1>

I wonder if he ever got his boat or his sails? 20 years ago so he might be riding bigger seas right now.

In the history of dodgy ideas, as far as hull performance goes, stowing the main up the mast has to be right up there with the Nobel prize winners. However, on a boat where performance is not an issue it no doubt has it has it's uses. If it means the difference between sailing and not being able to sail, fair enough.

.

 

[Baggywrinkle]

I wonder if he ever got his boat or his sails? 20 years ago so he might be riding bigger seas right now.

In the history of dodgy ideas, as far as hull performance goes, stowing the main up the mast has to be right up there with the Nobel prize winners. However, on a boat where performance is not an issue it no doubt has it has it's uses. If it means the difference between sailing and not being able to sail, fair enough.

.

What I can't understand, are the people who are perfectly happy to stow two sails up the forestays on a cutter rigged boat, but seem to have a problem with a different configuration where one is up the forestay and one is up the mast ....

 

[Kelpie]

What I can't understand, are the people who are perfectly happy to stow two sails up the forestays on a cutter rigged boat, but seem to have a problem with a different configuration where one is up the forestay and one is up the mast ....

If your headsail furler jams, you can untie the sheets and unwind it by hand, and then drop it.
Good luck trying to do that with a furling main.

 

[Chiara’s slave]

What I can't understand, are the people who are perfectly happy to stow two sails up the forestays on a cutter rigged boat, but seem to have a problem with a different configuration where one is up the forestay and one is up the mast ....

and jibs are considerably lighter than mains, and as a sweeping generalisation, smaller too, these days.

 

[greeny]

Can a mainsail furler be used while sailing downwind, furl/unfurl without changing course?

I could on my 473 bene. Just put the engine on and push the speed up for a few minutes while you furl. I never had any trouble with the z-spar in mast on her. But I understand those that have being reluctant to have in mast again on subsequent boats. Don't know what I was doing right but it always worked for me.

 

[Fr J Hackett]

I could on my 473 bene. Just put the engine on and push the speed up for a few minutes while you furl. I never had any trouble with the z-spar in mast on her. But I understand those that have being reluctant to have in mast again on subsequent boats. Don't know what I was doing right but it always worked for me.

Switching the engine on to reef

 

[Baggywrinkle]

and jibs are considerably lighter than mains, and as a sweeping generalisation, smaller too, these days.

On my roller furling AWB I noticed no difference in weight between my genoa and my main when stowing them for winter, if anything the genny was heavier,

 

[Baggywrinkle]

and jibs are considerably lighter than mains, and as a sweeping generalisation, smaller too, these days.

Just for interest I looked at a Rustler 42 (A blue water classic) with a cutter rig, and a Hanse 410 (AWB) with a self tacking jib and furling main.

The Rustler has 78,88 m² of foresail area on 2 furlers (Staysail + Genoa) ... plus a standard main of 40,88 m² in a stack-pack.

A Hanse 410 has 46 m² of furling main and 35 m² of furling jib - 81m² on 2 furlers.

The difference is 2,12 m² of dacron and maybe a few metres of aluminium extrusion ... so IMO anyone complaining about weight carried aloft on a full furling system compared to a "blue water", cutter rigged, stack-pack classic is splitting hairs ... and both boats are designed to carry that weight aloft.

The "weight aloft" argument is moot anyway because it stems from the "good old days" where furling was retrofitted to smaller boats not designed for it.

 

[Fr J Hackett]

I think the weight carried aloft is possibly marginal but it's there for me the real negative is the potential for a jam. Is it simpler than slab reefing I really doubt it, is it as efficient as a reefed slab reefed main someone that has used both on the sam boat would have to tell me but having used furlerboom and slab reefing on a Valiant 50 I can categorically say that the in boom reefed mainsail was not as efficient reefed and nor was it as efficient to windward as with the Harken cars, intermediates on the fully battened main. I do suspect that people choose either in mast or boom because they associate slab reefing with going to the mast and consider it dangerous plus they also feel it's easier.

 

[greeny]

Switching the engine on to reef

Whats the problem with that. Single handed in a following sea just before entry to the river where there is an wind acceleration zone. Why make things difficult for yourself. Engine would be going on in 10 minutes anyway because I wouldn't sail into the marina any way.