In mast furling vs slab reefing

[Fr J Hackett]

Whats the problem with that. Single handed in a following sea just before entry to the river where there is an wind acceleration zone. Why make things difficult for yourself. Engine would be going on in 10 minutes anyway because I wouldn't sail into the marina any way.

What about offshore do you use the engine to reef all the time.

 

[Baggywrinkle]

I think the weight carried aloft is possibly marginal but it's there for me the real negative is the potential for a jam. Is it simpler than slab reefing I really doubt it, is it as efficient as a reefed slab reefed main someone that has used both on the sam boat would have to tell me but having used furlerboom and slab reefing on a Valiant 50 I can categorically say that the in boom reefed mainsail was not as efficient reefed and nor was it as efficient to windward as with the Harken cars, intermediates on the fully battened main. I do suspect that people choose either in mast or boom because they associate slab reefing with going to the mast and consider it dangerous plus they also feel it's easier.

For me the disadvantages were the cats cradle of lazy jacks to funnel the main into the bag, only having 3 sail areas to choose from, and the need to go to the mast to make the halyard fast and prevent the sail raising itself again that killed it for me - balancing along the coach-roof and leaning over the sprayhood to flake the sail neatly into the bag was also an issue, and I had problems with a flailing sail catching in the lazyjacks at the battens ... all in all, not for me.

I appreciate that some people have experienced jammed in-mast systems, I have too, but on a boat where the sail was shot and stretched, there was way too much volume and zero stiffness, so the rolls got caught and pulled out through the slot with the exiting sail edge, jamming everything up. With good condition, stiff sail cloth I have never had a problem.

Sailed for 12 years with a Selden in-mast system and it was a joy ... once the wind got up I could always achieve a more than acceptable speed so the lack of perfect sail shape never bothered me either.

My next boat must have a roller reefing main.

 

[greeny]

Of course not unless situation requires it. I use whatever tools and system I have at my disposal given the circumstances. Just explaining that there are other options than struggling to roll the main in certain conditions.

 

[Baggywrinkle]

What about offshore do you use the engine to reef all the time.

Sounds like an innovative way to release the load on the sails IMO. Why not? the engine is there and can be started and stopped at the push of a button.

 

[greeny]

Sounds like an innovative way to release the load on the sails IMO. Why not? the engine is there and can be started and stopped at the push of a button.

Thanks, just trying to give people other options beside the "traditional" way.

 

[Fr J Hackett]

Sounds like an innovative way to release the load on the sails IMO. Why not? the engine is there and can be started and stopped at the push of a button.

If you have to and are happy then it's a choice for the individual but having to rely on it in my view is less than ideal.

 

[Fr J Hackett]

For me the disadvantages were the cats cradle of lazy jacks to funnel the main into the bag, only having 3 sail areas to choose from, and the need to go to the mast to make the halyard fast and prevent the sail raising itself again that killed it for me - balancing along the coach-roof and leaning over the sprayhood to flake the sail neatly into the bag was also an issue, and I had problems with a flailing sail catching in the lazyjacks at the battens ... all in all, not for me.

I appreciate that some people have experienced jammed in-mast systems, I have too, but on a boat where the sail was shot and stretched, there was way too much volume and zero stiffness, so the rolls got caught and pulled out through the slot with the exiting sail edge, jamming everything up. With good condition, stiff sail cloth I have never had a problem.

Sailed for 12 years with a Selden in-mast system and it was a joy ... once the wind got up I could always achieve a more than acceptable speed so the lack of perfect sail shape never bothered me either.

My next boat must have a roller reefing main.

I have never had a problem with lazy Jacks and if you are concerned about going to the mast then bring the lines aft. Marking the main halyard with the various reefs makes it unnecessary to do anything other than ease it to the required mark then wind in the reefs either manually or with a powered winch, you might occasionally need to snug up the main halyard.

 

[Baggywrinkle]

I have never had a problem with lazy Jacks and if you are concerned about going to the mast then bring the lines aft. Marking the main halyard with the various reefs makes it unnecessary to do anything other than ease it to the required mark then wind in the reefs either manually or with a powered winch, you might occasionally need to snug up the main halyard.

It's more when the main is down completely and the main halyard is flapping about, still attached to the sail - needing to go forward to either detach it or make it fast to prevent the sail being hoisted by strong wind.

There is a great video of a catamaran being flipped over a pontoon in New Zealand because the main halyard was left attached to the sail - the sail got raised by strong winds acting on the halyard ... definitely a one-off and the Superyacht on the right gets laid flat under bare poles.

Top left of this video ...

 

[greeny]

If you have to and are happy then it's a choice for the individual but having to rely on it in my view is less than ideal.

Never said I relied on it. That's your addition. But pray tell me, what is so wrong about using the engine? Do you feel the same about using bowthrusters or GPS. Both new ways of doing things that have proved to very useful.

 

[Zing]

It's more when the main is down completely and the main halyard is flapping about, still attached to the sail - needing to go forward to either detach it or make it fast to prevent the sail being hoisted by strong wind.

If dropping at sea your reef lines are pulled in and on jammers it should only ever pull up to the last or third reef, not all the way, so the hazard is in reality much less. Also, when you drop the sails it is usually not rough, so most of the time it’s an easy task, and in the rare situation it is then a brief trip to the mast to do something about that risk is no big deal surely.

 

[jordanbasset]

Had 2 boats with inmast furling
One of my wife's few conditions when we bought the second boat was it must have inmast furling. She found it so easy to use after experiencing slab reefing

Was happy to agree with her

 

[Fr J Hackett]

Never said I relied on it. That's your addition. But pray tell me, what is so wrong about using the engine? Do you feel the same about using bowthrusters or GPS. Both new ways of doing things that have proved to very useful.

It was a generalisation not meaning that you personally use it every time but what is wrong with it is that one day it may not be available.

 

[Roberto]

I could on my 473 bene. Just put the engine on and push the speed up for a few minutes while you furl. I never had any trouble with the z-spar in mast on her. But I understand those that have being reluctant to have in mast again on subsequent boats. Don't know what I was doing right but it always worked for me.

Thank you. I was more referring to sailing downwind, when it's reefing time the boat usually goes at hull speed already, an auxiliary engine would be unable to increase it by any relevant amount.

 

[Chiara’s slave]

We never go dead downwind anyway, unless it’s so bad we’ve stowed the main. We’d probably have to luff slightly to get that 3rd reef in. But from our usual 135 to about 120 to bring the apparent wind forward of the beam.

 

[Baggywrinkle]

If dropping at sea your reef lines are pulled in and on jammers it should only ever pull up to the last or third reef, not all the way, so the hazard is in reality much less. Also, when you drop the sails it is usually not rough, so most of the time it’s an easy task, and in the rare situation it is then a brief trip to the mast to do something about that risk is no big deal surely.

Roller furling is simply easier IMO, all done from a couple of winches and a couple of ropes under the sprayhood. Mine has never failed on me in over a decade .... it's simply my preference.

When I chartered a stack-pack boat, I found it more complicated, more ropes, more flogging around, sail caught in the lazy jacks, the reef lines were flogging and wrapping up unless taking in all three reefs while simultaneously releasing the main halyard, let it slip and the whole lot dumps onto the boom. All in all roller furling was so much simpler and that's why I'll stick with it.

Did all the slab reefing thing in my youth too, before stack-packs, and did hanked on jibs of various sizes ... things have improved a lot since then.

 

[geem]

Roller furling is simply easier IMO, all done from a couple of winches and a couple of ropes under the sprayhood. Mine has never failed on me in over a decade .... it's simply my preference.

When I chartered a stack-pack boat, I found it more complicated, more ropes, more flogging around, sail caught in the lazy jacks, the reef lines were flogging and wrapping up unless taking in all three reefs while simultaneously releasing the main halyard, let it slip and the whole lot dumps onto the boom. All in all roller furling was so much simpler and that's why I'll stick with it.

Did all the slab reefing thing in my youth too, before stack-packs, and did hanked on jibs of various sizes ... things have improved a lot since then.

Most of that could be down to poor technique. I don't recognise any of those issues. We all have our preferences. For me I would never buy a boat with inmast reefing. The simplicity of a good slab reefing system wins hands down for me

 

[NormanS]

I have some experience of both systems. Indeed, our present boat, a 36ft ketch has in-mast main, and "conventional" mizzen.
We are an elderly couple, and much prefer the in-mast. OK, we lose a bit of sail area, and therefore in light weather, some speed, but the ease of sail handling is a huge benefit. For starters, we hoist the mainsail once a year. We don't have to go forward to do anything to do with sails or sailing. Those who say that in order to furl, the boat has to be precisely head to wind, seem to forget that it's the boom that will be head to wind, not necessarily the boat. In fact ours behaves better when the wind is coming slightly from starboard. We can so easily adjust the sail area to suit the conditions, simply by easing the sheet and pulling on the endless furling line.
The mizzen, even though it is a much smaller sail, is much more bother to handle. It has to be hoisted every time, taking care that the battens don't get caught up in the lazyjacks. Stowing it involves prancing about up on the aft seating, zipping it in to its stackpack, and fiddling about with the halyard shackle.
The Genoa, of greater area than the main, and with its clew much higher than that of the main, when furled, will have its centre of gravity considerably higher, and its weight considerably greater, than that of the mainsail. It's strange that folk go on about the weight of a furled in-mast mainsail, but quite happily have a furled headsail.
Just my considered opinion.

 

[geem]

I have some experience of both systems. Indeed, our present boat, a 36ft ketch has in-mast main, and "conventional" mizzen.
We are an elderly couple, and much prefer the in-mast. OK, we lose a bit of sail area, and therefore in light weather, some speed, but the ease of sail handling is a huge benefit. For starters, we hoist the mainsail once a year. We don't have to go forward to do anything to do with sails or sailing. Those who say that in order to furl, the boat has to be precisely head to wind, seem to forget that it's the boom that will be head to wind, not necessarily the boat. In fact ours behaves better when the wind is coming slightly from starboard. We can so easily adjust the sail area to suit the conditions, simply by easing the sheet and pulling on the endless furling line.
The mizzen, even though it is a much smaller sail, is much more bother to handle. It has to be hoisted every time, taking care that the battens don't get caught up in the lazyjacks. Stowing it involves prancing about up on the aft seating, zipping it in to its stackpack, and fiddling about with the halyard shackle.
The Genoa, of greater area than the main, and with its clew much higher than that of the main, when furled, will have its centre of gravity considerably higher, and its weight considerably greater, than that of the mainsail. It's strange that folk go on about the weight of a furled in-mast mainsail, but quite happily have a furled headsail.
Just my considered opinion.

I can understand the desire to have easy handling as you get older. Everything gets harder.
Iam not quite there yet. For me, the performance benefits in sail shape when going to weather are important. With good quality sails and good sail shape we maintain a high pointing angle. Our sails are 10oz Vectran. They are heavy cloth because of the type of sailing we do. Lots of inmast reefing systems canhot actually accommodate heavy weight cloth as they won't fit on the drum in the mast. This happened to a friend of mine planing an around the world trip in his 47ft boat. He had to accept lighter weight cloth.
Our mizzen and main are both slab reefing. The mizzen is a high roach but is only 150sqft and it is on cars not sliders, so it hoists super easy. Ditto the 420sqft mainsail. With flush decks and big granny bars , working at the mast is super easy, efficient and fast. Reefs in and out are not a problem. I wouldn't change our setup. We have no lines forward of the wheel. Minimal friction. Mainsheet and genoa winches are all within easy reach of the helmsman.
With both genoa and blade jib on furlers we don't need to reef the genoa, ever. It's either in or out. The windward sailing performance of smaller jib and good setting mainsail is a real bonus for us when the weather gets a little tough.
Its horses for courses and we all have different needs and priorities. Nobody is wrong in their choices if it's suits their needs

 

[davethedog]

We have in mast furling and will admit that the sail shape is not as good as slab reefing but we are a cruising boat (as are most live a boards)and as we are short handed all the time (wife and I) the fact we can do everything from the cockpit is a no brainier. Perhaps hallberg rassy, amel, oyster, and all the others that produce ocean going vessels know the market for a cruising boat.

Sorry to say that we also have, and use, electric winches {conservatively). Not because we need to but because it is just a lot more convenient for the wife.

 

[geem]

We have in mast furling and will admit that the sail shape is not as good as slab reefing but we are a cruising boat (as are most live a boards)and as we are short handed all the time (wife and I) the fact we can do everything from the cockpit is a no brainier. Perhaps hallberg rassy, amel, oyster, and all the others that produce ocean going vessels know the market for a cruising boat.

Sorry to say that we also have, and use, electric winches {conservatively). Not because we need to but because it is just a lot more convenient for the wife.

We have a friend here who is 84 years old. He sails with his wife on an aluminium 57ft sloop he built in 1980. I asked him if he had electric winches. He was shocked and replied 'no! I have the best outdoor gym in the world! Why would I want electric winches!'
I guess he firmly believes in the saying 'uses it or lose it'. I have to admit that I have been tempted by the idea of an electric winch for furling the genoa but not yet