In-mast furling: out of place on a serious offshore yacht?

[NormanS]

Do you furl and un-furl with the sail full or do you alter course to take the load off? just curious because I find the clutch is a bit rough on the rope when letting it slip under load which is why I take a turn round the winch and let it slip that way.

To furl, I ease the sheet, so that the sail is not drawing. I hitch the "out" line over a cleat on the mizzen, just enough to keep a little tension on it, and then open its clutch, and heave in on the "in" line, through its closed clutch. If I want to stop partly furled, I close the clutch on the "out"line, and take in any remaining slack. The tension of the line over the veed pulley at the mast stops the sail from unwinding.

What you are doing with the turn round the winch is exactly the same as I am doing with the cleat on the mizzen. You're probably doing it better.

 

[Baggywrinkle]

ah but the one in the cockpit and the one at the mast is both me, to torture the grammar a bit. but you gave me the idea of NOT using a continuous loop. I guess you need a long line with a figure-8 to make sure it does not slip through the cleat?

sorry I've had a glass or two, it the above does not make a lot of sense.

Makes perfect sense.

I don't know if a continuous line ever slips at all, but with a single piece of rope, you could run out of rope before the sail is furled. Not sure why my continuous loop was removed.

I reckon if I had the continuous furling line to one winch, and the outhaul to the other, I could do the lot from the cockpit alone.

To reef: winch handle working reefing line, outhaul over the opposite winch and eased with free hand.
To let sail out: winch handle on out-haul, reefing line over opposite winch and eased with free hand.

Raymarine on the helm or lock it off on straight ahead 'cos the winches are on the cabin top, can't trust these twitchy AWBs to go in a straight line on their own

NormanS is absolutely right, if there's no load on the sail it can be done without winches, mine just seems to behave better when the sail is drawing.

 

[KellysEye]

>In-mast furling: out of place on a serious offshore yacht?

I wouldn't touch it on any yacht and definiltely not an offshore boat. There are two issues, a flat sail shape and little power plus they can jam. We had one jam on a 52 foot Beteteau in Antigua sailing week.

 

[snooks]

If it's good enough for Amel it's good enough for round the world.

Yeah, but Amel have their masts extruded to Amel's own design and the only way to get a system like theirs is to buy an Amel

It did work very well although push button sailing might not be every ones idea of sailing

 

[Vara]

I wasn't sure at first but now 5 years on, I think our inmast reefing is wonderful and would actively seek out inmast reefing for any future yachts. Any loss of sail area due to the lack of lack of roach just isn't needed with our mast head genoa, that is were the real power comes from.

Pete

After having replaced an old knackered sail on mine, I agree totally. If I were to specify a new boat then in mast furling would be essential kit.

 

[Baggywrinkle]

I wouldn't touch it on any yacht and definiltely not an offshore boat. There are two issues, a flat sail shape and little power plus they can jam. We had one jam on a 52 foot Beteteau in Antigua sailing week.

Didn't you also say chart plotters were a waste of money and AIS is pointless? I think I'm getting the picture .....

When sailing back in the 80s my dads big fear was the sail sliders jamming in the mast track or breaking - even seen it happen and had a main jammed half-up.

It's still happening today ...

http://forums.ybw.com/index.php?Threads

So IMHO it's down to the engineering of the system itself and the level of care and maintenance, not the method it employs - generalisations like this don't hold true.

 

[westernman]

My neighbours in the marina had a hell of a job getting their main furled with their in mast furling system. I think it was a new main. They spent all day messing around trying to get it to go in. No idea what they did in the end (I left and went back home).

All in mast furling mains I have ever seen have had a pretty nasty shape. Frankly I would not like to sail with such a screwed up sail shape - but each to their own.

Sure, in mast furling when it works (which should be almost all the time once you get the hang of it), is very quick and convenient. However, putting in a reef on a properly equipped slab reefed main is not much of a hassle any way - and you can always be sure that you can get the main reefed or stowed. A slab reefed main will have a much better shape when not reefed, and also when reefed as well. The difference when going to windward in strong winds and rough seas is considerable (but that is not the kind of sailing that most of us want to be doing).

If an in mast furling system jams when trying to furl in an approaching storm, you can be in big dodo.

 

[BrianH]

If an in mast furling system jams when trying to furl in an approaching storm, you can be in big dodo.

It's why I opted for an in-boom system - there's practicably no chance that the luff tape will not run down its articulated groove. I suppose the halyard sheave could jam but highly unlikely. Having witnessed one in-mast jam in the Caribbean where the wind was strong but no gale and the mainsail we had left could be tolerated, my fertile imagination was suitable impressed with the implications.

So perhaps I was being over-cautious about mainsail jamming "in an approaching storm" when I specified my new system and mainsail, but where I sail, the northern Adriatic, I had, on a few occasions over the many years spent there, experienced the typically sudden boras of great force - unforcasted and out of nowhere. It was a struggle to reef from full sail even with everything working - just the hint of a jam could be catastrophic in such powerful gusts and with the steep, short seas that it soon stirs up.

 

[capnsensible]

>In-mast furling: out of place on a serious offshore yacht?

I wouldn't touch it on any yacht and definiltely not an offshore boat. There are two issues, a flat sail shape and little power plus they can jam. We had one jam on a 52 foot Beteteau in Antigua sailing week.

Operator errror. They dont jam on their own.... Sail shape is controlled by the outhaul, its simply a case of knowing what you are doing.

Last summer I delivered a Beneteau 48 from Sotogrande, Spain to Turkey. No problem at all.

You just need to learn how to use it properly, like anything else o board.

 

[Ex-SolentBoy]

Operator errror. They dont jam on their own.... Sail shape is controlled by the outhaul, its simply a case of knowing what you are doing.

Last summer I delivered a Beneteau 48 from Sotogrande, Spain to Turkey. No problem at all.

You just need to learn how to use it properly, like anything else o board.

Spot on. We have had ours for several years and I would certainly have it again.

 

[Greenheart]

I've read this split outlook for weeks, with great interest. I had supposed that choice of reefing system is a little like the way you make coffee - you can do it an effortless, almost instant way, with somewhat less enjoyable/fulfilling consequences - or you can invest a little time and skill, for peerless results.

What's not yet wholly clear to me - despite the evident sincerity by all contributors, in their words - is whether operator know-how and astute design of the equipment, can absolutely rule out the serious inconvenience and the real danger of a sail jamming unfurled, at sea in a gale...

...are those contributors who doubt the system's safety/usability, simply unschooled in correct procedure?

Or are certain standards of in-mast reefing basically unequal to the enduring rough & tumble of offshore applications? I mean, all manner of 'soft-road' 4x4 cars can be said to benefit their drivers in loose surfaces or light snow...but they're no match for serious off-roading.

I'm reminded of differences of opinion in respect of anchoring (dare I introduce that theme?) ...an anchor which, correctly used, cannot fail short of exceeding its maximum load, might still disappoint if used with too short a scope of chain...but one must understand the reasons why anchors break out, to avoid that error...

...is every instance of snagged rolling mainsails, a case of mishandling and/or lousy equipment?

 

[Grumpybear]

No it sin't, but then not every evolution on a boat always goes according to plan, no matter how good the equipment, how expert the crew and so on. If you are looking for boat equipment to be absolutely 100% guaranteed to work perfectly every time throughout its design life and beyond, methinks you are doomed to disappointment and might be better advised to remain in a virtual parallel universe where life is beautiful all the time and you love those men in their clean white coats etc......

 

[Greenheart]

I'm only wondering if those offshoremen who've practiced to perfection their use of inmast furling, laugh at nay-sayers, as preposterously behind-the-door.

Here again is the pic that started me wondering - a very proper offshore yacht, apparently very committed to in-mast furling:

View attachment 29055

 

[BrianH]

What's not yet wholly clear to me - despite the evident sincerity by all contributors, in their words - is whether operator know-how and astute design of the equipment, can absolutely rule out the serious inconvenience and the real danger of a sail jamming unfurled, at sea in a gale...
...are those contributors who doubt the system's safety/usability, simply unschooled in correct procedure?

Even the most proficient of us can get it wrong, especially when the chips are down ... Even us single-handers are never truly alone, Murphy is always on board somewhere. Something akin to reefing should be as foolproof as possible, one should never rely on always having to have the perfect technique. I know that I have rolled my in-boom poorly and the mainsail has creased up badly - only after a few years have I really learned how to get it right. But at least I have always had it lowered when needed.

 

[Greenheart]

Even us single-handers are never truly alone, Murphy is always on board somewhere...

Love it!

 

[Grumpybear]

I'm only wondering if those offshoremen who've practiced to perfection their use of inmast furling, laugh at nay-sayers, as preposterously behind-the-door.

Here again is the pic that started me wondering - a very proper offshore yacht, apparently very committed to in-mast furling:

View attachment 29055

I don't think they do. They just get on with enjoying their sailing, like everyone else. The debates on this forum can be a lot of fun and produce gems of knowledge, but they can all too often spiral off into an intensity of disagreement I have never met face to face, even after several sherbets.

 

[Greenheart]

Here we go again ... in answer to the OP: have a look at the pictures of a few ocean going sailing yachts and you will get your answer.

Sorry if I appear irascible, but what conclusion did you expect me to reach?

Your reply wasn't clear at all - there are any number of photos of yachts equipped both ways. Or was that the answer you intended?

 

[TQA]

I have not ploughed my way through all of this thread but has anyone pointed out that the largest purchaser of yachts with the most comprehensive knowledge of failures at sea, that is companies like Moorings and Sunsail [ OK Tui ] have moved away from in mast furling and are buying slab reefing set ups.

Maybe they know something?

 

[Ex-SolentBoy]

I have not ploughed my way through all of this thread but has anyone pointed out that the largest purchaser of yachts with the most comprehensive knowledge of failures at sea, that is companies like Moorings and Sunsail [ OK Tui ] have moved away from in mast furling and are buying slab reefing set ups.

Maybe they know something?

But charter boats seldom do serious offshore sailing which is what the question is about. The charter companies are moving away because they are tired of numpties who jam the thing. It's also more expensive to buy.

 

[geem]

In 2005 did a west to east Atlantic crossing. We had wind on the nose all the way to Azores apart from last day. So I would say its pretty useful to have good windward ability. Passage was in May so even the corect time of year