In-mast furling: out of place on a serious offshore yacht?

For me the fact that all the weight of the mainsail remains up is enough to put me off in mast furling. It certainly wouldn't improve comfort in rough conditions even if it doesn't make it that much worse. As already mentioned here, the really big boats have already got past in mast furling and now more often that not use an in boom system. But then again, when you're talking about sails that weigh tons the top hamper issue becomes more serious.
 
Woodlouse said:
For me the fact that all the weight of the mainsail remains up is enough to put me off in mast furling. It certainly wouldn't improve comfort in rough conditions .
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That's not certain!. Rolling becomes slower and more comfortable with weight aloft. Lots of unloaded fishing boats might hoist a heavy anchor up the masts to slow the rolling and increase comfort, whilst sailing boats that have lost their masts become quite untenable.

Weight aloft reduces small angle 'stability' and possible affects AVS, but nether of those contribute to comfort.
 
dancrane said:
Apologies: this may not be terribly far off the AWB vs MAB battle of philosophies, I'm afraid.

Is the convenience of inmast furling, at odds with a ready-for-anything, rugged, ocean-sailing philosophy?

I realise (or hope, optimistically) that it's more likely just to be sail shape which suffers under reefing (and thus upwind pace), rather than there being an inevitable foul-up inside the mast, which prevents reefing in a gale, and finally dismasts the yacht, somewhere off the Azores...

...but I found a tasty Alan Pape ketch for sale - great looking yacht, very traditional in lines...except, she's got an in-mast main, which I didn't expect on this design.

Give the pic a click, I haven't mastered full-size photos here yet. :rolleyes:

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Granted, she may have been the plaything of somebody who deeply doubts his ability to clamber about on the coachroof in a strong breeze...but are in-mast arrangements still derided as they were initially, twenty years or more back?
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The photo of the boat in question has vertical full length battens which handles the question of the roach but what a weight aloft. And, how can you get the sail down with battens that length?
 
TimBennet said:
That's not certain!. Rolling becomes slower and more comfortable with weight aloft. Lots of unloaded fishing boats might hoist a heavy anchor up the masts to slow the rolling and increase comfort, whilst sailing boats that have lost their masts become quite untenable.

Weight aloft reduces small angle 'stability' and possible affects AVS, but nether of those contribute to comfort.
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Certainly roll and pitch will be slower, but it will also be more pronounced. Fine if you're sitting hove too gutting fish, but less good if you're trying to beat to windward. And you're right, it will also effect the stability and the AVS by raising the COG.
 
Woodlouse said:
Certainly roll and pitch will be slower, but it will also be more pronounced. Fine if you're sitting hove too gutting fish, but less good if you're trying to beat to windward. And you're right, it will also effect the stability and the AVS by raising the COG.
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When "you're trying to beat to windward" you also have sails acting against the roll very efficiently, so no reason to worry about rather small difference in it's natural period or amplitude.
 
Woodlouse said:
Certainly roll and pitch will be slower, but it will also be more pronounced. Fine if you're sitting hove too gutting fish, but less good if you're trying to beat to windward. And you're right, it will also effect the stability and the AVS by raising the COG.
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Surely all boats beating to windward will have their mainsails up, so the only difference is the little weight of the actual furling gear. One of the advantages of in-mast is that you don't have to hoist the sail every time.
 
NormanS said:
Surely all boats beating to windward will have their mainsails up, so the only difference is the little weight of the actual furling gear. One of the advantages of in-mast is that you don't have to hoist the sail every time.
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You are right, but what if the are reefed and beating?
 
Rossynant said:
When "you're trying to beat to windward" you also have sails acting against the roll very efficiently, so no reason to worry about rather small difference in it's natural period or amplitude.
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You still have the increased and slowed pitch though which is the real killer of progress.

NormanS said:
Surely all boats beating to windward will have their mainsails up, so the only difference is the little weight of the actual furling gear. One of the advantages of in-mast is that you don't have to hoist the sail every time.
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The little weight is on a large lever and should I be reefed I'd rather the excess weight was as low as possible.

It's horses for courses though. In mast furling can be effective and it can be reliable. Personally I wouldn't choose it but then it's not an issue for me since I sail and old gaffer. (And there's me harking on about weight aloft!)
 
Sybarite said:
The photo of the boat in question has vertical full length battens which handles the question of the roach but what a weight aloft. And, how can you get the sail down with battens that length?
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My Rustler 44 has vertical battens. They actually are very light as they are fibreglass. Like those tent poles you fit together.

Our main goes up just before Easter and comes down in December! To drop the sail you just slide the battens out.

5f255e5c00eb90d66a8c436ea1f3d2ab.jpg
 
Differences in weight or performance are not so big to be worried about. More depends on the boat itself; especially as for pitching motion better to take anchor off the bows then sail off the mast :p
 
Jeepers! I hadn't looked at Scuttlebutt since 7a.m...50 replies in under 12 hours, none of them my own...I'd no idea this was such a popular subject.

Ex-SolentBoy said:
To drop the sail you just slide the battens out.
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Are the battens very flexible, then? Or are they segmented, with an elastic connection? If they're as tough and inclined to splinter, as tent-poles, don't they endanger sailcloth if they break?

The Rustler looks terrific. But what's the deck? Looks like bare GRP - weren't you tempted by teak, or a light-brown treadmaster?
 
dancrane said:
Jeepers! I hadn't looked at Scuttlebutt since 7a.m...50 replies in under 12 hours, none of them my own...I'd no idea this was such a popular subject.
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Perhaps you don't waste enough of your time here. This subject comes up regularly and is beginning to rival anchors as a generator of contrary opinions. However, unlike anchors there are less alternatives to argue about and as you see from the posts there is a majority in favour and the antis are reduced (almost) to such comments as "might be OK for some, but don't like it".

For most people who have a furling mainsail it is a positive choice, and once they have it would not go back, although for some it is likely to become a default because the number of new boats not fitted is getting smaller and smaller, so this will trickle down into the used boat market so limiting choice.
 
Rossynant said:
:cool: Ever tried treadmaster for your girl sunbathing? Then the temptation might be lost... ;)
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Real teak would be my preference, provided I had the budget to get the whole lot replaced when it starts to give trouble...but I think Treadmaster can look very nice too, very workmanlike...and mademoiselle can lie on a towel. ;)

I first saw in-mast furling being used on a sloop that stopped to offer assistance when I was miles offshore on the Topper in a fog, in about 1990. It looked a very smart system to me, working quickly and neatly. I daresay the owner was proud of it and wanted to show it off, because I certainly didn't need any assistance. :rolleyes:

I saw a very old-school ketch anchored in Studland Bay last year, all sails lowered but not taken off - even the headsails, just loosely bunched up on the deck, ready to hoist again in a moment. Looked fabulous...but I daresay years in an armchair dreaming about sailing, makes traditional chore-like deck-work seem more appealing than it is in practice...
 
NormanS said:
We are probably in the category suggested by ProMariner, where keeping things easy should extend our sailing lives. Having gone back to sailing after many years on the dark side, we have found huge improvements in sail handling technology. Previously we didn't even have a furling jib (on our Folkboat). We find the ease and simplicity of both the furling genoa, and the in-mast main, fantastic. When the wind pipes up a bit too much, we just wind some sail away, without ever leaving the cockpit. It is also very good for adjusting the tension along the foot.

I haven't found that the boom has to be at a precise angle to the mast. Why should it? The clew is not fastened directly to the boom. I could see that with in-boom furling, it would matter, but in my experience, provided the sheet is eased, the main can be wound in with no drama, anytime.
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Try pulling up a roller blind by only one of the cords - it rolls unevenly & a crease starts.
If a boom isn't at the correct angle, in my experience, this 'crease' can form inmast & cause jamming.
 
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dancrane said:
Jeepers! I hadn't looked at Scuttlebutt since 7a.m...50 replies in under 12 hours, none of them my own...I'd no idea this was such a popular subject.



Are the battens very flexible, then? Or are they segmented, with an elastic connection? If they're as tough and inclined to splinter, as tent-poles, don't they endanger sailcloth if they break?

The Rustler looks terrific. But what's the deck? Looks like bare GRP - weren't you tempted by teak, or a light-brown treadmaster?
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The battens are in sections about 2m long. They screw together. I guess they would splinter, but once they are in the batten pockets there is no reason for them to bend in that direction, so no breakages yet.

The deck is GRP with a non slip surface like sandpaper molded into it, which is great because you can pressure wash it. I did consider teak, but I had a teak deck on the last boat and wouldn't do it again. Cost, maintenance, resale value, weight etc. Anyway, from my cockpit you cannot see the side decks so I would be spending loads for someone else to look at!
 
alant said:
Try pulling up a roller blind by only one of the cords - it rolls unevenly & a crease starts.
If a boom isn't at the correct angle, in my experience, this 'crease' can form inmast & cause jamming.
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All the roller blinds that I've had anything to do with, do in fact wind up with a cord at one end, and because that cord causes the whole spool to rotate, the blind rolls up. In-mast furling works on exactly the same principle. You are introducing a problem which doesn't exist. In-mast works in exactly the same way as foresail furling. The only difference is that it is hidden inside the mast.
 
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