"In build", sort of, pics of Sq58 - long/lots pics

[djefabs]

Re: \"In build\", sort of, pics of Sq58 - long/lots pics

Thanks for the update jfm, its a fabulous boat. I have just had Tecma toilets retro fitted to my Squadron and am delighted with them. They are very quite. Lights look stunning and would love to see pics when the boat is in the Med. If they can make the Essex brown water look that good they will be amazing in the clear waters of the med. A truly stunning boat and thank you for sharing.

 

[TigaWave]

Re: \"In build\", sort of, pics of Sq58 - long/lots pics

Thanks,

Fitting and removal is quite straightforwards, less than 4 hours. The F68 drawings require a 25mm solid layup over tunnel and bulkhead to take the thrust loads.

We fitted and then removed them on a boat that ran trials in the states. In practice they can be removed and installed much quicker than a conventional set up, this is the main benefit to boat builders. They can save almost the cost of the units in labour/yard space and time.

Nice thing is, if you do have to remove shafts this is a 30min job and no realignment is needed as the tube remains in situ, but with a 10,000hr overhaul schedule this shouldn't be needed very often.
This is one of the reasons for our success in commercial boats.

I understand your feelings completely on standards of engineering and fitting, it's very important for us as we warranty the shafts and associated fittings for a period of 2 years or 500hrs.

The reasons for retro fitting are primarily reduced noise and vibration, as an added benefit we have now shown reduced fuel burn/engine load of around 7% at cruise speeds. This was with the same props, working with Clements there may be more performance to be gained by optimising this extra hp/different water flow characteristics at the prop.

The other benefits are as you say neglegible in real terms but will add value to the boat. So far Marex, Van der Heijden, Fleming and Dean catamarans are converts. All have been amazed at the difference in noise and type of noise. Hopefully we'll have the Fleming at SIBS this year and a Fleming with normal shafts to see the difference.

I'd love to show you the video of the difference in noise sometime! I could send you the unedited dvd if you like.

Without Seatorque there is noticable engine transmission whine, and also cavitation noise from the props. With the same boat on Seatorque drives the only noise the camera mike was picking up (apart from water and wind) was the turbo's. Looking at the spectrum the noise levels were lower but of different frequencies, allowing you to hear talking in the aft cockpit of a twin 2000hp MTU boat going at 40knts.

E-mail your address and I'll send the video for you to review and give some feedback here if you like.

 

[sarabande]

Re: \"In build\", sort of, pics of Sq58 - long/lots pics

I was quite serious about the lights attracting fish, as others have also posted.

Bioluminescence is a frequent marine phenomenon, mainly in the blue-green spectrum (between 440 and 479 nm). It well documented as a deep sea lure used by predators. Some are steady light-emitters, others are flashers.

Your LED engineer will be able to suggest the control settings to replicate the right frequency - thereafter a reflective (stainless) lure jigged up and down off the stern platform should result in a source of fresh protein.

Sudden thought, though; I don't know how well the genny(s) are insulated, but some fish are averse to certain frequencies including ones outside the normal human range.

for bedtime reading:

Spectral Sensitivity of Vision and Bioluminescence in the Midwater Shrimp Sergestes similis[/]


http://www.biolbull.org/cgi/content/abstract/197/3/348

 

[coliholic]

Re: \"In build\", sort of, pics of Sq58 - long/lots pics

Fantastic boat jfm and thanks for sharing the pics and the info. Very impressive. Having never visited them or had anything to do woth them, I was sort of under the impression that EBY was a bunch of Essex spivs, but from your post seems they're exactly the opposite. Are they part of Fairline now?

 

[PowerYachtBlog]

Re: \"In build\", sort of, pics of Sq58 - long/lots pics

you forgot to mention sport fisher builders Ocean Yachts and Donzi Rosciolli
would like to have some details on which Ocean Yachts it was fitted
there is a nice Ocean 73 SF in Malta which ironically I meet in Capri last Summer, lovely boat
there is also the rumour that some big Italian builder is testing Seatorque but wants esxlusivity for it...

 

[MapisM]

Re: \"In build\", sort of, pics of Sq58 - long/lots pics

[ QUOTE ]
Will you have a third helm station in the cockpit again

[/ QUOTE ]Do you mean on top of the one already visible in the pics?... /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

 

[jfm]

Re: \"In build\", sort of, pics of Sq58 - long/lots pics

The boat already has the volvo fixed 3rd station aft Jimmy, which I prefer, so I'll stick with that. The remotes are fine, if you want one. It depends how you use the boat, but for me it's a solution to a problem I don't have. I only use the 3rd controls for the last 2 metres of stern-to docking, and (say) to come alongside (stbd side to) a concrete jetty to drop off/pick up a passenger without fenders. I quite like the fixed-ness, because i know where it is. With the remote I think I'd have more hesitation in a stressful mooring scenario cos I'd need to check which way the remote was pointing to make sure to select the right engine/gear!

Ref Mapis's q above, it's a "standard" cost option, about £1800 + vat, and easily retrofitted incidentally becuase the volvo stuff is plug and play. Fairline have always offered it as a "stick out" box on the Sq58, not hidden away. In practice that doesn't bother me - I had the same on previous boat 5 years and if I were to list out mods to the Sq58 design (and it's a long list...) having the throttles hidden away wouldn't be on it

Whether you have the wireless remote or these fixed ones it is a very worthwhile option in the med, imho

 

[jimmy_the_builder]

Re: \"In build\", sort of, pics of Sq58 - long/lots pics

Good point, well made (although if you want to be that picky, wouldn't it therefore be a fourth helm station...). Ok, ok, sorry. I just like the idea of remote controlling the whole boat.

Cheers
Jimmy

 

[jfm]

Re: \"In build\", sort of, pics of Sq58 - long/lots pics

Wow, such knowledgeable posters on here, thanks for that Sarabande. Well, I'll give it a try then. The preset "Fish" modes are blues and greens, but I don't know the exact wavelengths. I can look up people's data though, and use that to dial in the control panel x% primary blue and y% primary green, or whatever. The flash frequency is user adjustable with the up/down buttons

Blimey, there's a whole empirical dataset i could collect there!

Noted re genny. It's a 1500rpm unit not 3000, btw. Often when the lights are on (in evenings when the hot sun has passed, so no airco running) I wont have it on anyway. The general overhead on the boat even if we're not being careful is say 25 amps, plus say 10 for the u/w lights (on medium brightness) and we can (and would choose to) handle that for a few hours in the evenings just off the batteries

I'll report back on the fishing/great whites in the summer

 

[jfm]

Re: \"In build\", sort of, pics of Sq58 - long/lots pics

[ QUOTE ]
some big Italian builder is testing Seatorque but wants esxlusivity for it...

[/ QUOTE ]

and we can guess who that is ))

 

[MapisM]

Re: \"In build\", sort of, pics of Sq58 - long/lots pics

Interesting reading, thanks.
Can you say how much of the advantages you're reporting are due to the thrust bearer vs. the encapsulated shaft?
I'm asking because other solutions to avoid the thrust transfer to the engine mounts have actually been around for ages.
Even the shafts of my very traditional boat are connected to thrust bearers, and the engines spins them through short internal shafts on VL joints. And fwiw, I can confirm that they make a great job in limiting noise and vibrations.
But I'm a bit skeptic about further improvements due to the reduction in drag and turbulence with encapsulated shafts (=not rotating, yes, but also bigger).
And btw, my thrust bearers are fitted to massive 10" wooden structures, integrated within 5" frames. It would be a helluva job to fit them afterwards, and I don't see why it should be much easier with grp boats.

 

[MapisM]

Re: \"In build\", sort of, pics of Sq58 - long/lots pics

[ QUOTE ]
and we can guess who that is ))

[/ QUOTE ]ROTFL, yeah, what's better than "exclusivity" as a magic word to justify a nice price premium!?!

 

[Pinnacle]

Re: \"In build\", sort of, pics of Sq58 - long/lots pics

Many thanks for taking the time and trouble to create such an enjoyable post. I hope she brings you many years of pleasure ( as I am sure she will! /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif )

Your comments about EBY are most interesting - if only all marine oriented co's could deserve such praise /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif.

 

[Dave_Snelson]

Re: \"In build\", sort of, pics of Sq58 - long/lots pics

OK - I just LOVE your boat. The lighter colour woods inside are just great coz dark shiny woods make any space appear smaller, dunno why paler woods aren't standard?

And all the gadgets (useful gadgets) that you have fitted and things you have changed just look the biz.

But my favourite? Yep - Lumishore lights.

 

[jfm]

Re: \"In build\", sort of, pics of Sq58 - long/lots pics

Hiya. Good to hear from you

Yep they're Essex boys cos they are based in Essex! But they're not spivs. They're great folks to buy a boat from. It's a seriously well equipped, but down-to-earth, boat centre and their attitude is incredibly helpful

Ref equipment, they have on site a shed big enough to take 3 Squadron 70s, loads of new boat moving equipment (serious cranes, dollies, cherry pickers, all with fancy hydraulics and stuff), full paint spraying and stainless steel works, LOADS of spare parts and gizmos in stock, and generally very good team of boat fixers/installers. The chief boat fixer, Pete, is VERY knowledgweable on boat mods/repairs, and he also sails boats (he captained what became my boat to and from SIBS) so he gives advice from a users/skippers point of view

They did some GRP tweaks for me (Nick Barke is expert in GRP stuff) and they consciously used the right resins from Scott Bader that were specced to have the best adhesion to the Scott Bader) resin that the boat is made from. That's proper engineering thinking. And the work was perfection.

In contrast, my last boat was modded by Peters in Chichester (2004) and the work was frankly terrible. I have over the years ripped out and re-done all of Peters wiring (becuase I dont like fires at sea...) and after the first week they had the boat I just had to ban them from using power tools anywhere near the boat.

EBY's helpfulness is beyond anything I've ever experienced buying a boat, as I've posted on here before. They sort of lent me their workshop (with a key) and said "Do what you want". Mind you, it's not rocket science - I expect many other boat yards around the world could be, and plenty will be, as good.

The yard (9 acres afaik) is kind of a yard. It's not posh and there are no Ferretti style showroom facilities. (Actually they have just had the whole thing re-tarmaced and gravelled last week, so there are no potholes anymore!). But if you dont want those distractions it's a perfect place to buy a boat imho

They're completely honest and I feel well run - I'm not at all worried about deposit monies!

 

[TigaWave]

Re: \"In build\", sort of, pics of Sq58 - long/lots pics

Interesting, there are a few things/names I can't mention as yet.

Transmission noise loss is down to taking thrust on a seperate thrust bearing which is fixed, as you said this is not new.
Reinforcing for a recent F68 quote was just some extra layup at the through hull bulkhead. Most GRP hulls are very strong in these areas all ready.

Sports fishing boats have just been fitting tubes around existing shafts for some time and getting better performance. The video we have shows a different wake trail so there is something significantly different going on under the water.

The other benefits are a much improved machanical system of transmitting power, 2% mechanical losses against 6%-10%.
We see improved performance in boats changing from rubber bearings to composites. Close tolerance = less movement of shaft= less noise/more power at the other end.

The tube has bearings along its length, so no unsuported length of shaft to whip. ss is bendy and a 3" shaft pushed at the end with 700hp will try to bend, especially if it's held in rubber and the engine/gearbox can move sideways.

I'm beginning to feel a little guilty now but it seems there is some interest and I hope I havn't gone on too much, I'm as interested in getting feed back and opinions at the moment.

 

[Nick_H]

Re: \"In build\", sort of, pics of Sq58 - long/lots pics

[ QUOTE ]
I'm as interested in getting feed back and opinions at the moment.

[/ QUOTE ]

IMO any significant engineering mod like this needs to have an approved installer network. I'd pay to have 7% more power on tap, and less noise and vibration, but I sure as hell wouldn't be the guinea pig for a boat yard that hadn't fitted them before.

 

[jfm]

Re: \"In build\", sort of, pics of Sq58 - long/lots pics

Thanks for the info Tigawave

I'm intrigued. Cutting noise noticably is well worth doing, a very attractive proposition

Being candid with you this is a difficult purchasing decision for the individual boat owner. Fine for Fleming becuase they have the resources to experiment. But for someone like me it is a massive leap of faith. Once work starts there's no going back (becuase new P brackets, GRP layup inside boat, replacement of the gubbins around the shaft seals, maybe some holes in the hull). So if you're not happy with the result it becomes a disappointment, and spoils enjoyment of favourite toy. Questions go thru your head like "Will the installers use Scott Bader resin?" for example

Almost everything else you buy for the boat can be undone if you don't like it. But not this. And it's not like I feel I have a noise problem. This is merely a noise improvement

Ref the warranty, you know what, that misses the point I don't care at all that someone promises to fix it if it breaks. I want it not to break to begin with

What I'm trying to say, and being very candid, is this is a very difficult purchasing decision to make. If any doubt, customers will opt not to proceed I think. For most vendors the customer base is people who decide "Well it's worth a shot". But your customer base is, i think, only people who are damned certian the product is ok. That's a natural consequence of selling a product that is (a) not undo-able and (b) attached to the customer's favourite possession!

And your challenge isn't to convince customers that in principle the tube-over shaft is good and the thrust bearing can help reduce noise. Those things are plainly true in principle. The question for the customer is whether your product delivers those things without any collateral damage (apart from the cost, but that's a secondary issue to the engineering)

I'll think about it lots more though!

 

[longjohnsilver]

Re: \"In build\", sort of, pics of Sq58 - long/lots pics

Jfm, that's a good looking boat you have. You could take up fishing for squid and cuttlefish, they love lights! But don't get the ink on those lovely teak decks!

What had to be taken apart to get your washer/dryer in the utility room? Certainly looks a good job. And why no blue? And not a gold tap in sight /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif The matt oak looks the dogs whatsits

Sounds like EBY are doing you proud, can't imagine many places let u use their trade accounts. That's above and beyond the call of duty.

 

[jfm]

Re: Impressive job indeed

I just exchanged emails with Mr Lumishore. Some of the below is cut and pasted from his email. Bottom line is, Lumishore are unique, the only RGB controllable u/w lights available in the world currently. A great British engineering success as Wakeup said

The control unit shown on the UWLL website is for interior lights only and for small 1 watt leds. A bit like Fairline offer on the Sq55 for moodlighting. UWLL don’t have an RGB underwater light available although they are looking into it. They don’t expect to develop anything for the next 12 months and are not as advanced as Lumishore on the driver technology

Apart from the driver technology one of the Lumishore features is within the LED array itself. The issue with using standard off the shelf gen 1 leds (as per UWLL and Oceanleds) is that within an array they have to be spaced apart with a single lens placed over each led. This means you get banding of the colours instead of a good colour mix. Lumishore use advanced thermal substrates that allow placing the leds very close together effectively making a pseudo single source emitter (they call this the HICOB technology – hi intensity chip on board), Because of its high chip density it this allows a single lens system over the complete array which results in a light beam that has its wavelengths mixed at the source.