Impellers

[lionelz]

It’s Ok message received re not me :encouragement: personally.

Yup totally agree the “;net “ and more it’s easy access with devices and Co,s like Amazon are changing the shape of the high street for retail.
Again nobody’s holding knifes to the punters throat .

As far as the “ service “ and “convenience” , side of your argument, we are talking with the internet of a choise of speed of delivery and as Jrudge has correctly pointed out —- with mech parts like impeller s try taking one back ,or a car tyre part worn etc. .
Those extra “service “ calc s have been computed and the punter places a low priority on those touchy feeling things .

Btw the other genuine MAN parts have allways been bought via the internet and post / shipping- so personally the high street shop,argument does not hold .
But I get your point about me impeller kicking at @ genuine shop , but I had bought the Internet part before I went in .
Of course if there was a slightest suspicion of a difference then I would have bought A pair .
I did not walking out thinking Crikey .

What would other folks do in the same circumstances?

Thanks for that it's hard to vent and not make it personal. I absolutely understand why we all do it we all want a bargain. It's the sign of the times and I don't think it's going to change I'm just and an old Git who possible is just stuck in the past

 

[Boat2016]

Really ! Let’s try it next time.

Hello volvo my impeller has failed.

No problem sir. Here is a new one. E100 please

I want it for free as it has failed.

It’s a service part sir that happens.

I only bought it 3 months ago.

Sir probably got a bag over his intake. Will that be cash or card ?

I have, a few years back I had one separate from the drive and was replaced FOC by VP as it was a manufacturing defect.

 

[MapisM]

Might be ok or might not but the Chinese are very good at copying everything except for the quality, I personally wouldn’t take a chance with something that could potentially be very expensive if it failed, if I bought a genuine one and it goes wrong I would expect the manufacturer to stand by it but with the Chinese copy’s I bet you are on your own.

It would be nice if it were that simple, the genuine stuff made by the good guys and the cheap copies made in PRC.
But this thinking overlooks what happened in the last 3 or 4 decades of industrial development worldwide.
The reason why China became the main manufacturer of just about anything was not driven by their ability to copy stuff.
Btw, actually the Chinese aren't particularly good at that, as anyone who did work there can confirm - in this respect, they are nowhere near as accurate as the Japanese or the Korean, as I'm told by folks who experienced that first hand.

Fact is, big western corporations understood that they could improve their results by having their parts built in China, because for more reasons than one (lower manpower cost is in fact the most commonly mentioned factor, but there are others, sometimes even more relevant) that could grant them huge savings - which obviously weren't transferred into a reduction of their selling prices, or at least much less than proportionally, and with as much delay as the market pressure allowed.
Over time, this lead to a situation where the very same MAN impeller (or anything else, but just to stick to the current example), either packed with a genuine MAN label or not, can actually be produced in Guangzhou by an unheard of Wei Ltd, exactly in the same production line, with the same materials, methods, etc.

But this didn't happen because Mr. Wei has ever been good at copying anything in his whole life.
What happened is that Jabsco (which IIRC supplies pumps to MAN) sent their engineers to China.
They supported Mr.Wei in creating a modern and efficient impeller production inside his rubber factory, which up to that point used to build just rubbish of some sort.
And while they were there, they also helped Mr.Feng to convert his equally rubbish foundry for producing pump bodies, and so forth.
Sure, Jabsco at some initial stage might have experienced problems with parts prematurely failing, probably explained to their clients as a bad batch or something.
But eventually, Mr.Wei and Mr.Feng became the real experts at building impellers and pump bodies.
And in the meantime, exclusivity agreements expired - or even if they didn't, they weren't so enforceable over there anyway.
Not to mention that for one client who could possibly stop purchasing from them, they had a queue of others waiting.

Bottom line, nowadays these parts should be more aptly called "genuine Wei" or "genuine Feng", rather than genuine MAN, Jabsco, etc.
Which in turn makes Mr. Wei and Feng able to contribute to Ferrari's constant double digit sales growth in that market, if nothing else...
In other words, the western corporations made their bed, and now we all have to lie in it.
So, from our viewpoint of boaters (aka cash cows), trying to undercut not only the final dealer but also the "genuine" factory altogether is just self-defense, nothing else.

Having said that, I very much sympathize with lionelz when he says that what PF did to compare his impeller at the local dealer can hardly be called ethical.
And it is true that the next time PF will need something straight away, chances are that the same shop will be closed.
But if there's any logical reason why this ongoing process might be reversed in the future, I completely fail to see it... :ambivalence:

 

[MapisM]

I have, a few years back I had one separate from the drive and was replaced FOC by VP as it was a manufacturing defect.

That's not the issue here.
It could well be that if you would email the Chinese supplier just telling that you didn't receive the 3 impellers which you bought, they will send you another 4 FoC.

The problem is that a failed impeller could create a much bigger damage, and you suggested in post #9 that an engine builder would kindly offer to rebuild an engine wrecked by a failed impeller if "genuine".
But all I can tell to anyone with such wishful thinking (even for much smaller damages) are two simple words: good luck.

 

[Boat2016]

It would be nice if it were that simple, the genuine stuff made by the good guys and the cheap copies made in PRC.
But this thinking overlooks what happened in the last 3 or 4 decades of industrial development worldwide.
The reason why China became the main manufacturer of just about anything was not driven by their ability to copy stuff.
Btw, actually the Chinese aren't particularly good at that, as anyone who did work there can confirm - in this respect, they are nowhere near as accurate as the Japanese or the Korean, as I'm told by folks who experienced that first hand.

Fact is, big western corporations understood that they could improve their results by having their parts built in China, because for more reasons than one (lower manpower cost is in fact the most commonly mentioned factor, but there are others, sometimes even more relevant) that could grant them huge savings - which obviously weren't transferred into a reduction of their selling prices, or at least much less than proportionally, and with as much delay as the market pressure allowed.
Over time, this lead to a situation where the very same MAN impeller (or anything else, but just to stick to the current example), either packed with a genuine MAN label or not, can actually be produced in Guangzhou by an unheard of Wei Ltd, exactly in the same production line, with the same materials, methods, etc.

But this didn't happen because Mr. Wei has ever been good at copying anything in his whole life.
What happened is that Jabsco (which IIRC supplies pumps to MAN) sent their engineers to China.
They supported Mr.Wei in creating a modern and efficient impeller production inside his rubber factory, which up to that point used to build just rubbish of some sort.
And while they were there, they also helped Mr.Feng to convert his equally rubbish foundry for producing pump bodies, and so forth.
Sure, Jabsco at some initial stage might have experienced problems with parts prematurely failing, probably explained to their clients as a bad batch or something.
But eventually, Mr.Wei and Mr.Feng became the real experts at building impellers and pump bodies.
And in the meantime, exclusivity agreements expired - or even if they didn't, they weren't so enforceable over there anyway.
Not to mention that for one client who could possibly stop purchasing from them, they had a queue of others waiting.

Bottom line, nowadays these parts should be more aptly called "genuine Wei" or "genuine Feng", rather than genuine MAN, Jabsco, etc.
Which in turn makes Mr. Wei and Feng able to contribute to Ferrari's constant double digit sales growth in that market, if nothing else...
In other words, the western corporations made their bed, and now we all have to lie in it.
So, from our viewpoint of boaters (aka cash cows), trying to undercut not only the final dealer but also the "genuine" factory altogether is just self-defense, nothing else.

Having said that, I very much sympathize with lionelz when he says that what PF did to compare his impeller at the local dealer can hardly be called ethical.
And it is true that the next time PF will need something straight away, chances are that the same shop will be closed.
But if there's any logical reason why this ongoing process might be reversed in the future, I completely fail to see it... :ambivalence:

Thanks for the detailed explanation :encouragement:

 

[Bigplumbs]

Whilst not having a go at you personally this sort of attitude is why the retail industry is falling down. So the first thing is lets not let anyone make a profit but go direct to the factory and cut everyone out of the loop. And then because I'm not to sure that it's the right product I will go to a shop that is no doubt struggling to make a living and use their service for FREE. I speak as someone who owns a small retail shop, and I have this all the time. If you want a service then you should be prepared to pay for it. So for rant it's not aimed at you in person, it's just the general attitude of people that pisses me off. I know it's very hard to justify and explain why we should sometimes pay more, and I do not know what the margins are in the marine industry. But just think that the next you are out and need something straight away, the good chance is the shop that used to sell it has closed because the factories are now undercutting everyone

With the internet the traditional retail industry is doomed. If the sort of mark ups people are suggesting on these impellers are true then in my book they deserve to go bust. Industry must move with the times or fail.

I buy 70 % of my non food shopping from Amazon now delivered next day and get a TV channel into the bargain.

Dennis

 

[Portofino]

With the internet the traditional retail industry is doomed. If the sort of mark ups people are suggesting on these impellers are true then in my book they deserve to go bust. Industry must move with the times or fail.


Dennis

Bit harsh , we still need these walk-in parts shops for convenience and advice .
It’s a balance , buy some stuff from them ,and support them and buy some from the net .
Intuitively one knows the value of a product and as said there’s nothing complicated about an impeller.
It’s a matter of crossing a mental barrier for €100 ,s several hundreds for a bit of bronze / rubber .
€800 or less will buy a new 2,5 Hp outboard .

Other genuine consumable s prices like oil , fuel filters are acceptable inline with automotive parts and look more complicated to manufacture so can see the value but we are talking tens of € per item .
All relative , I know .
Mark ups fine - those folks are running a business, in FR for example the social charges hiring staff are irrc about 60 % of the salary, along with rates , etc and many other overhead bills on top .

 

[BruceK]

The High Street shops are no longer convenient. I am not the most patient of people and prefer by far to buy instantly from the local HS. But as it turns out more often than not I cant find what I am looking for. Need AF, go to chandlery, they order in collect it in two days sir. Go to Maplins, need some rocker switches, we will order it in, come back next week sir. Buy a sync gauge from ASAP, it's on back order, we will send it out in 3 months sir.
Go to China, buy 4 x the amount of switches I need at 10% of the HS price, wait a week longer. Import the gauge direct from America, cut get it 2 months earlier. Buy the AF from another online chandlery, have it delivered in the same time frames but at the loss of business to the local chandlery and 10% cheaper.

In short the HS guys seem to be doing exactly what the punter is doing and adding their percentage on top. It's not convenience shopping at all. I sometimes wonder if the stock they hold is simply window dressing.

 

[petem]

I long for the day when the chandler in Sant Carles is actually open! I've been out to Spain three time and never once seen it open (that's the Spanish for you).

 

[Eren]

Hi Portofino,

I just wondered if you had used the impellers from China which was the topic of this thread. I will be very glad if you can inform us.

 

[Bigplumbs]

Be ready for the War to Resume

 

[Portofino]

Yes they were put in last May ,
Done 80 hrs since uneventfully.
My water temps have always been a steady 85 in the summer ever since I got the boat in 2014 ,Drops to 79 @ tick over marina manoeuvring .Just thought its time to open up the pumps and replace the impellers .The old ones looked fine btw but I had no idea precisely how many hrs they had done .
But as said I turn / run the engInes regularly along with flaps , rudders , shafts .....Aircon all pumps etc etc over the winter closed season .Same with cars turn the engines / bearings spread oil keep seals moist .Geny inc on the boat .
Thus far I have had zero issues / repairs with anything in 5 seasons except a bilge pump sentry switch ....on of those triangle cheese things €18 from an Italian shop .

Adjusted the tappets myself last season .....iirc every 400 hrs according to MAN .Felt a difference not only quieter but smoother and more powerful .A lot of power / compression is lost with diesels in particular if the valve overlap is excessive.
Its doesn’t take much error to feel it .
Compression ratios of petrols is approximately 1/2 diesels so you don’t notice that final 2% error in valve closing / opening.
It’s the exhaust valves with marine diesels ( due to the likelihood of greater temps exposure ,) that get out as the hrs tick by .So they delay in opening and close early thus not as efficiently emptying the cylinder .

 

[Assassin]

Its actually simpler than many think as many Chinese factories make OE parts for many manufacturers and many others make cheaper copies and some factories make both OE parts and cheaper options.
Profit is the motive and maximisation of profits is down to the management levels, and if companies such as Ford shave 2mm of metal from bolt heads to save money then we have a prime example of this

Who makes cylinder heads for Mitsubishi, Ford, PSA (Citroen and Renault) and Fiat? oh yes the Chinese factory, actually two factories belonging to the same company, and who makes most of the rubber and synthetic polymer components for most engines of any kind, the Chinese.
Is this anything new? no, its gone on for decades and America proudly proclaimed Mc culloch chainsaws were American when in fact they were made in Brazil and shipped over the border to the US and they fitted the spark plugs and the bar to the machine and proudly proclaimed Made In America.

Didn't Ford do this in the 70's when they promoted German built Fords as superior and many idiots bought into this drivel, when Ford opened their Spanish plant they were building the same cars nearly 25% cheaper and shipping them over to Germany by train and fitting the VIN plate to the vehicles and proudly proclaiming them as German built Fords when they were built in Spain, when challenged they produced their vehicle assembly documents and the last stage of the build was listed as fittting the VIN plate and they said it was fitted in Germany so legally it was a German built Ford under the legislation of the day.

Its down to individual choice as you can go directly to the OEM and obtain a part with only the factory mark up on it, or you can go to a supplier and buy the same part with the factory mark up, the manufacturers mark up, and the end retailers mark up on it, you pays your money and makes your choice.

 

[Assassin]

Just because a Chinese website says they're the supplier to those companies, it doesn't mean it's true! As I said, do you REALLY think that VP, etc would allow them to use their licenses, patterns, specifications, trademarks to sell directly to the public. By all means but from this company but buy on the basis that you are taking a gamble on a pattern part with no guarantee of quality and no redress if things go wrong.

Actually they can and how many tyre manufacturers claim to be OE suppliers to many car manufacturers, how many brake component manufacturers supply OE brakes to many vehicle manufacturers, Pagid, Brembo, Lockheed as examples.

 

[Plum]

Thinking of the impeller drift on the other thread

Here’s a link to the factory / distribution centre in China where the OEM stuff comes from.

I,am currently paying $ 39 each . + $25 shipping . So 104 USD delivered .
French shop € 450 each - €900
American e-bay circa $200 each .

They do two or less main site suggests min order 10 - just send an inquiry and go from there .
Tell them the engine type and part No or just use there shop .

10 min tops for a reply .

Excellent quality btw . Exactly like OEM ,which is what you want .

China Jabsco Johnson Sherwood Water Pump Flexible Impellers, Outboard Inboard Sterndrive Engine Parts, Marine Engine Parts Manufacturer and supplier

Thanks. I just got a quote from them for 4 impellers which works out at, including shipping and import duty, GBP20 each. I currently buy Orbitrade ones from ASAP for GBP30 each (inc shipping when buying 4). I have been using Orbitrade ones for 5 years and decided not to take the risk of changing supplier for that cost saving. For larger batches the difference would be greater. Thanks for the info though.

Www.solocoastalsailing.co.uk