TimBennet
Well-Known Member
Yes the recently opened Thames stations are all full time paid, but the Humber Lifeboat at Spurn Point has always been full time and paid. As have all the 'motor mechanics' at each station.
If I were an RNLI donor I would not be happy.
- Thread starter Sybarite
- Start date
C
Chrusty 1
Guest
Bru
Well-Known Member
I've been avoiding the temptation to post on this thread for days but finally I can't resist it any longer ...
Full time crews ...
Currently, RNLI has a full time crew at Humber (Spurn Head) due to the inaccessibility of the station.
Three of the four Thames station have full time crewing (30 employess) alongside volunteer crews (125 volunteers) due to the demands of the stations (high levels of call outs, difficulty in having volunteers available at certain times of the day)
Every all weather station has a full time mechanic. A handful of stations also have a full time coxswain
The above facts are easily found on the RNLI web site (they are not shy about it is what I mean)
Reserve ...
The reserve is approx 4x annual operating budget. That's is about spot on for a 3rd sector organisation. If it was excessive, the Charity Commission would be on their case (trust me on this, I used to be a trustee of a charity that was instructed to reduce its reserves by the CC. They are very hot on it)
The reserve isn't wasted money. It will be invested and bringing in an income. It will permit self-insurance (to some extent at least) and creates long term stability by allowing fluctuations in income to be absorbed without affecting operations
Income surplus ...
Is good! Would you rather they made a loss????
Paid employees ...
Right. There are two basic 3rd sector models. One, which the French seem to have adopted, is a stripped down organisation almost entirely run by volunteers (including senior managerial posts etc.) with a handful of paid staff. That's, by the way, the model the charity I was a trustee of worked to
The other model, which most of the really big charities adopt, is to have a paid professional cadre of senior management and key employees (fund raisers etc.) Such charities, of course, inevitably have far higher staff budgets however they also invariably have a far higher income to compensate. Effective corporate fund raising is VERY difficult and time consuming.
RNLI salaries appear to me to be commensurate with similar positions elsewhere in the 3rd sector and well below the levels the post holders could expect to recieve working at a similar level in the private sector
By the way, one fact that hasn't been mentioned yet is that the SNSM receives 35% of its funding from the government (national, regional and local). The RNLI receives no income at all from government in any form (although beach lifeguards are paid by the appropriate local council)
The RNLI may not be perfect (there's always room for improvement in any organisation) but it is pretty damn good.
Full time crews ...
Currently, RNLI has a full time crew at Humber (Spurn Head) due to the inaccessibility of the station.
Three of the four Thames station have full time crewing (30 employess) alongside volunteer crews (125 volunteers) due to the demands of the stations (high levels of call outs, difficulty in having volunteers available at certain times of the day)
Every all weather station has a full time mechanic. A handful of stations also have a full time coxswain
The above facts are easily found on the RNLI web site (they are not shy about it is what I mean)
Reserve ...
The reserve is approx 4x annual operating budget. That's is about spot on for a 3rd sector organisation. If it was excessive, the Charity Commission would be on their case (trust me on this, I used to be a trustee of a charity that was instructed to reduce its reserves by the CC. They are very hot on it)
The reserve isn't wasted money. It will be invested and bringing in an income. It will permit self-insurance (to some extent at least) and creates long term stability by allowing fluctuations in income to be absorbed without affecting operations
Income surplus ...
Is good! Would you rather they made a loss????
Paid employees ...
Right. There are two basic 3rd sector models. One, which the French seem to have adopted, is a stripped down organisation almost entirely run by volunteers (including senior managerial posts etc.) with a handful of paid staff. That's, by the way, the model the charity I was a trustee of worked to
The other model, which most of the really big charities adopt, is to have a paid professional cadre of senior management and key employees (fund raisers etc.) Such charities, of course, inevitably have far higher staff budgets however they also invariably have a far higher income to compensate. Effective corporate fund raising is VERY difficult and time consuming.
RNLI salaries appear to me to be commensurate with similar positions elsewhere in the 3rd sector and well below the levels the post holders could expect to recieve working at a similar level in the private sector
By the way, one fact that hasn't been mentioned yet is that the SNSM receives 35% of its funding from the government (national, regional and local). The RNLI receives no income at all from government in any form (although beach lifeguards are paid by the appropriate local council)
The RNLI may not be perfect (there's always room for improvement in any organisation) but it is pretty damn good.
Sailfree
Well-Known Member
The biggest reason for the UK being where it is now is arrogance.
We have the best Army, the best health service, the best education, the best Universities and from many opinions on here the best sea rescue service eg the RNLI.
Why can we not learn that while we were once at the forefront of most things others have copied them and why can't we accept that johnny foreigner may well have improved on them.
The only way to be the best is to look at how others do it and take the best bits from each. The people who are best positioned to spot the ways that other countries perform are ex UK citizens that live in other countries and understand the other countries systems.
We should not mix up the hard work of good teachers/lecturers/doctors/nurses with the bad management that detracts from their efforts and creates waste in the system. Nor should we confuse the efforts and sometimes heroics of the front line personal with the poor management/efficiency of what Americans call the REMF (rear etchelon mother F* ckers).
Sybarite has quite reasonably initially drawn a comparison between the French rescue service boat and the UK boat costs that is worthy of serious consideration. It has developed into a slanging match with many telling him to shut up as he lives abroad and is questioning the running of their sacred cow. It has expanded into the salaries paid to a number of HQ staff.
It appears that the good work, the mainly volunteer crews do, has created a understandable emotion that has caused generous contributions and resulted in the RNLI being well funded and with v large financial reserves. I would liken this emotive response to how so many contribute to Dogs for the Blind charities leaving them with vast excesses but so few to the actual blind people.
I was surprised that there were not more questions asked with the expenditure on the new Poole HQ.
The facts remain the RNLI do a great job, their good PR has resulted in them being generously supported but that should not stop us looking analytically at their organisation and ensuring that we are getting value for money and frankly if I was a regular financial contributor or a volunteer I would be annoyed if money was being mis-spent especially on high salaries to HQ staff.
Sybarite has raised a sensible question that merits serious debate and not for him to be derided.
If nothing else this thread has revealed the ignorance of some regarding not all crews being volunteers but some being paid employees and funnily the very same were the ones that wanted to shut Sybarite up!! I suppose if you know nothing its best to react by trying to shut up informed people. If anyone is going to be rewarded I would prefer it to be the crews!!
I never thought I would ever be agreeing with Toad - must go and have a lie down now to recover!!
We have the best Army, the best health service, the best education, the best Universities and from many opinions on here the best sea rescue service eg the RNLI.
Why can we not learn that while we were once at the forefront of most things others have copied them and why can't we accept that johnny foreigner may well have improved on them.
The only way to be the best is to look at how others do it and take the best bits from each. The people who are best positioned to spot the ways that other countries perform are ex UK citizens that live in other countries and understand the other countries systems.
We should not mix up the hard work of good teachers/lecturers/doctors/nurses with the bad management that detracts from their efforts and creates waste in the system. Nor should we confuse the efforts and sometimes heroics of the front line personal with the poor management/efficiency of what Americans call the REMF (rear etchelon mother F* ckers).
Sybarite has quite reasonably initially drawn a comparison between the French rescue service boat and the UK boat costs that is worthy of serious consideration. It has developed into a slanging match with many telling him to shut up as he lives abroad and is questioning the running of their sacred cow. It has expanded into the salaries paid to a number of HQ staff.
It appears that the good work, the mainly volunteer crews do, has created a understandable emotion that has caused generous contributions and resulted in the RNLI being well funded and with v large financial reserves. I would liken this emotive response to how so many contribute to Dogs for the Blind charities leaving them with vast excesses but so few to the actual blind people.
I was surprised that there were not more questions asked with the expenditure on the new Poole HQ.
The facts remain the RNLI do a great job, their good PR has resulted in them being generously supported but that should not stop us looking analytically at their organisation and ensuring that we are getting value for money and frankly if I was a regular financial contributor or a volunteer I would be annoyed if money was being mis-spent especially on high salaries to HQ staff.
Sybarite has raised a sensible question that merits serious debate and not for him to be derided.
If nothing else this thread has revealed the ignorance of some regarding not all crews being volunteers but some being paid employees and funnily the very same were the ones that wanted to shut Sybarite up!! I suppose if you know nothing its best to react by trying to shut up informed people. If anyone is going to be rewarded I would prefer it to be the crews!!
I never thought I would ever be agreeing with Toad - must go and have a lie down now to recover!!
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C
Chrusty 1
Guest
Well all the prattling and criticism on here wont make a blind bit of difference, thank goodness, the only way anyone can work for whatever change they would like to make is to join the RNLI as a Governor or Life Governor. Then you get to go to the AGM if you want, and vote.
Litotes
Well-Known Member
Straw man. I doubt if anyone here actually thinks as you claim they do. It also quite offensive to characterise those who value and defend the RNLI as believers in a "sacred cow". However, it may be that we actually do have one of the best sea rescue services in the world, both technically and in the way it operates and the values it upholds. Please note - I do say "one of".
As far as learning from Johnny Foreigner is concerned, the fact is that sea rescue services around the world seek to learn from each other and share their expertise all the time. I'm afraid your claim that we don't seek to learn from other services is completely unfounded. There are certainly many services that seek to learn from the RNLI.
It is also a fact that the RNLI occupies a rather unusual and special position in our society as a whole and that is something many people value - rightly so. It is unique in that respect and here we are talking about values rather than facts, so arguments based on facts and factoids are not really relevant.
I think many of Sybarite's arguments and comparisons are of dubious validity and some here have tried to point that out, so there's no reason to repeat the issues here. When it comes to comparing the costs of boats, for example, there are vast tracts of relevant information that are missing and which would have to be taken into account for any sensible debate to take place. Even then, not many here would have the technical expertise to assess the information.
Perhaps values can be discussed to some purpose on an internet thread like this. When it comes to technicalities and practicalities, it is really no more than game playing, after all.
Sailfree
Well-Known Member
Are you politely saying the RNLI is great, cannot be improved, and should not be discussed as any internet discussion cannot fully know the facts. Do you really mean to say "Arguments based on facts and factoids are not really relevant"
It appears to me that you are trying to stop debate and that I find worrying!
I have to ask are you connected to the RNLI?
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Litotes
Well-Known Member
You certainly go in for straw men, don't you? I have neither said, nor implied, anything of the sort and the meaning you attribute to me is nonsense.
What I have actually said is that I don't take arguments very seriously when it is obvious that they are based on (glaringly) incomplete information. It seems you cannot distinguish between holding and stating an opinion about the "debate" and "trying to stop it".
You, for example, state that "we" are too arrogant to learn from Johnny Foreigner. Would you like to demonstrate that the RNLI has not, in fact, studied the French designs? I would be willing to bet that they have, along with many others in use across the world.
I have no connection with the RNLI and I'm afraid every point you make in the post I have quoted is complete rubbish.
C
Chrusty 1
Guest
Stifle debate??? I thought Litotes presented a very reasonable assessment.
Searush
Well-Known Member
I think you need to calm down & reread his post. The RNLI (& all other maritime Rescue organisations) regularly attend (& sometimes host)Interrnational Lifesaving conferences to learn from each other's experience.
I suspect that the French boats are bought off an assembly line & modified/ equipped to their own spec. The RNLI have (once again) designed & produced a prototype specialist boat & launch system to meet a specific need that no production boat or launch system, can currently meet. That may just have a slight impact on the apparent cost differences.
In due course, the Shannon will become a production boat & will probably be built & sold to other countries' (& companies') rescue services to defray the design & production costs. This has happened before with other groundbreaking lifeboat designs.
The builder simply does not have the resources to fund such research & development projects, but thanks to good, forward looking management, the RNLI does. I for one thank them for doing that & for moving on the design & safety of all watercraft.
jordanbasset
Well-Known Member
Having read this thread I am confused. On the one hand we are told that the French system is virtually all volunteers, run on a shoe string and their boats cost a lot less than the RNLI.
On the other hand, while it is true that they will rescue a person for free, I understand they do charge considerable fees to rescue boats, one figure was around 2,000 euros a time. This is where I start to get confused, if they are so efficient and also get healthy donations why do they need to charge so much, where is this money going to?
I can also understand the ethos that you should not be expected to be rescued for free (but am very glad the RNLI do just that), but if you charge fairly high fees for rescue should not the staff be paid, it is in effect a commerical operation. If it is so efficient what are they doing with this money they collect, perhaps they donate it to the RNLI.
On the other hand, while it is true that they will rescue a person for free, I understand they do charge considerable fees to rescue boats, one figure was around 2,000 euros a time. This is where I start to get confused, if they are so efficient and also get healthy donations why do they need to charge so much, where is this money going to?
I can also understand the ethos that you should not be expected to be rescued for free (but am very glad the RNLI do just that), but if you charge fairly high fees for rescue should not the staff be paid, it is in effect a commerical operation. If it is so efficient what are they doing with this money they collect, perhaps they donate it to the RNLI.
King Penguin
Well-Known Member
I may be wrong, but I believe it is shared amongst the crew........
Steve C Cronin
N/A
I MUST tell you how very inaccurate your perception is.
I have been associated with the Institution for many, many years and have yet to meet anyone, employed or volunteer who could be described as being on an "ego-trip". Most are very hardworking and dedicated and even the paid staff do much overtime for no extra remuneration. Send me a PM with your address and I'll send you some documentation.
jordanbasset
Well-Known Member
If that is the case it would certainly explain the blackhole where all the French money is going. If so I for one am glad the crews get paid, and rather handsomely at that, it is a tough and dangerous job. However it does kind of take away from the point about how many are unpaid volunteers and how efficient they are.
ditchcrawler
Well-Known Member
I probably like many others have been following this thread with disbelief.I am an RNLI member and have visited many of the stations and had both public and private tours.I have met many of the people who work in the organisation and have never met one who wasn't proud of what they do,and put in the utmost effort whether paid or unpaid.
We should be rightly proud of such an organisation and I don't care how much the next lifeboat or set of oilies cost as I believe that the people who put their lives on the line in all weathers should have the very best equipment.
I was recently in attendance at a christening(just happened that my boat was in Walton Pond) of the daughter of a member of the lifeboat from Walton.This by tradition is done on the lifeboat.We met many members of the crew and team on the boat and it struck me that they are not all fishermen etc but now from all walks of life but with the common pride in what they do as volunteers.I asked one or two what they thought of the organisation in general and they were supportive and recognised that the organisation had moved on from old farts and was now very progressive.
I have no idea how good the French model is or how it compares.It is run in a different way.I do know that ours is very good at what it does and the people who say that are the crews etc.
It is very easy to be critical and indeed all organisations can be improved, but if you want to improve it do something about it.
If Sybarite's criticism of the cost of an RNLI lifeboat on a forum results in someone changing their will then it is a very sad state of affairs.
We should be rightly proud of such an organisation and I don't care how much the next lifeboat or set of oilies cost as I believe that the people who put their lives on the line in all weathers should have the very best equipment.
I was recently in attendance at a christening(just happened that my boat was in Walton Pond) of the daughter of a member of the lifeboat from Walton.This by tradition is done on the lifeboat.We met many members of the crew and team on the boat and it struck me that they are not all fishermen etc but now from all walks of life but with the common pride in what they do as volunteers.I asked one or two what they thought of the organisation in general and they were supportive and recognised that the organisation had moved on from old farts and was now very progressive.
I have no idea how good the French model is or how it compares.It is run in a different way.I do know that ours is very good at what it does and the people who say that are the crews etc.
It is very easy to be critical and indeed all organisations can be improved, but if you want to improve it do something about it.
If Sybarite's criticism of the cost of an RNLI lifeboat on a forum results in someone changing their will then it is a very sad state of affairs.
Litotes
Well-Known Member
Can the person who posted that be serious? Deciding to change a will on the basis of a thread on an internet forum? I find that hard to believe, although I suppose stranger, and sillier, things do happen........
Fantasie 19
Well-Known Member
TeamSpirit
Well-Known Member
lustyd
Well-Known Member
Ahhh there you go then. The RNLI management is almost exclusively made up of MANAGERS. Why would I want a frickkin fisherman managing such an important service?
C
Chrusty 1
Guest
Ahhh there you go then. The RNLI management is almost exclusively made up of MANAGERS. Why would I want a frickkin fisherman managing such an important service?
From that may I assume that you think all fishermen are brainless, and unable to manage anything?
If my assumption is wrong, I apologise in advance.
