If I were an RNLI donor I would not be happy.

[Searush]

If the proposal is "the RNLI could do its job just as effectively over the next 5 years at 90% of what it spends today", the rational question to ask is had they spent 10% less over the previous 5 years would anyone have died or suffered life long disability as a result.

The example over the Channel indicates the answer is no.

That's pure conjecture & hyperbole. An opinion, and not a very well informed one either. If that's the best you can do, you might as well just give up.

And the proposal you invent has nothing to do with what has been discussed over these many threads. What's the point of making stuff up - how can that change the facts or influence the discussion? You're weird.

 

[jonjo]

Perhaps you should read up on some of the disasters which have occurred. try to learn how they still affect the thinking of both the RNLI and the communities which were affected.

From which I deduce you know those losses were due to penny pinching underfunding of those lifeboat stations by the RNLI at the time?

If not it is a thoroughly despicable act to invoke the memory of those heros of the past to underpin your desperate argument and vanity.

 

[Rigger Mortice]

Do you think that the RNLI have a monopoly of the disasters? Try looking at AberWrac'h 1986 when the whole boat crew was lost.

Don't be stupid. Of course it doesn't have a monopoly but, as we are discussing the RNLI, then it is that organisation which I will refer to.

I have no intention of getting into trading disasters with you to suit your bizarre agenda.

 

[Searush]

From which I deduce you know those losses were due to penny pinching underfunding of those lifeboat stations by the RNLI at the time?

If not it is a thoroughly despicable act to invoke the memory of those heros of the past to underpin your desperate argument and vanity.

There is no need for that sort of behaviour.

 

[jonjo]

That's pure conjecture & hyperbole. An opinion, and not a very well informed one either. If that's the best you can do, you might as well just give up.

And the proposal you invent has nothing to do with what has been discussed over these many threads. What's the point of making stuff up - how can that change the facts or influence the discussion? You're weird.

The thread is about a spendthrift RNLI. How is debating the effect of a 10% annual budget cut off topic?

I note that you are continuing your new reputation established in this thread i.e. attack the persona of those who disagree with you, rather than challenge the ideas.

A sure sign to any independent observer of your weak position.

 

[Rigger Mortice]

There is no need for that sort of behaviour.

You're right. It says far more about him than anything else.

 

[Sybarite]

Don't be stupid. Of course it doesn't have a monopoly but, as we are discussing the RNLI, then it is that organisation which I will refer to.

Actually you were responding to a post comparing the two orgainsations. At least try to be logical in your own mind.

 

[Hoolie]

That's pure conjecture & hyperbole. An opinion, and not a very well informed one either. If that's the best you can do, you might as well just give up.

And the proposal you invent has nothing to do with what has been discussed over these many threads. What's the point of making stuff up - how can that change the facts or influence the discussion? You're weird.

Steve, I think you need a reality check (indeed I think you may have lost the plot ) - the theme here is to look at what is being achieved by other organisations than RNLI. It is not knocking RNLI but thinking outside of the box to what can be achieved using a leaner procurement and operational model

 

[jonjo]

There is no need for that sort of behaviour.

Yes there is. It is extremely vulgar to believe "if I say I support the RNLI, I am somehow personally ennobled by those heroic deeds of the past and by implication morally superior to those who disagree with me".

 

[Searush]

Yes there is. It is an extremely vulgar to believe "if I say I support the RNLI, I am somehow personally ennobled by those heroic deeds of the past and by implication morally superior to those who disagree with me".

But that's another invented quote & bears little relationship to what was posted - apart from in your mind perhaps.

 

[Searush]

Steve, I think you need a reality check (indeed I think you may have lost the plot ) - the theme here is to look at what is being achieved by other organisations than RNLI. It is not knocking RNLI but thinking outside of the box to what can be achieved using a leaner procurement and operational model

Is it? It rather seems to be a small group of people making up stuff to malign the RNLI. The more their comments are shown to be inaccurate & false or simply occasional mistakes, the more strident & wild the accusations become.

No-one has actually shown any need for a "leaner procurement & operational model". Nor has anyone shown any benefit to be derived from the RNLI reducing expenditure. No-one has offered a sensible example of a better organisation, in fact only France & the USA have even been considered.

 

[Rigger Mortice]

Yes there is. It is extremely vulgar to believe "if I say I support the RNLI, I am somehow personally ennobled by those heroic deeds of the past and by implication morally superior to those who disagree with me".

You really are a clown. Accident statistics were raised when you said

Avoidable deaths for want of an extra £1 million annual budget:

RNLI 0
SNSM 0

I would have thought that it was vulgarity in the extreme to bean count the lives of volunteers. But then we know that you "dislike the RNLI intensely" so rational thought from you went long ago.

 

[Sybarite]

No-one has actually shown any need for a "leaner procurement & operational model". Nor has anyone shown any benefit to be derived from the RNLI reducing expenditure.

Maybe you would accept it if the Chief Executive of the RNLI says it?

The RNLI chief executive tells David Ainsworth that he likes the idea of the big society but his charity's tax bill has gone up and the VAT relief system for charities makes little sense

Paul Boissier says he likes the idea of the big society very much. "Who could possibly object to the big society?" he says. "It's a great idea, and the whole concept of communities has greater currency because of it."

Since becoming chief executive of the Royal National Lifeboat Institution in 2009, the former submariner has become passionate about the role that charities can play in communities and believes the RNLI is an exemplar of what the Prime Minister, David Cameron, wants the big society to achieve.

But he is also clear that the government's time in office has left his charity worse off. "The day after the Budget in March, I woke up and realised that we were going to have to find an extra £650,000 a year," he says. "The loss of transitional relief on Gift Aid cost us £400,000; the VAT rise cost us £200,000; and the increase in national insurance cost us £50,000.

"At a time when it's already difficult for us, and for others, we found we had this additional burden. That £650,000 would pay for lifeguards on 20 beaches.

"I think when the government increases taxation, it should have one eye on the sector. This isn't party political: I think the message is the same for all parties."

Volunteer workforce

Boissier points out that many other charities, like his own, provide services that the government would otherwise have to provide. But if a government agency provided lifeboats and lifeguards, it would not have to pay its £2m-a-year VAT bill.

"They also couldn't do it as efficiently because they couldn't harness the same volunteer workforce," he says. "About 97 per cent of people who work for the RNLI are volunteers, and that's not a model that could be replicated.

"Moreover, we do it from deep within the community. Our crews come from within the communities they serve. The repairs are done by local people. I think a lot of other charities work that deeply within their communities, too."




Boissier admits that the Budget also contained welcome measures to encourage giving, but says that, in the short term, they will probably not replace the extra tax his charity has to pay. He likes the taxation model pioneered in Denmark, which gives charities rebates on VAT, and would like to see it used in the UK.



"There's a movement in the European community to exempt organisations that provide community services from taxes such as VAT, in the same way as is done for government agencies that provide similar services. That would be a good way to help the sector at large."

At the moment, he says, tax reliefs for the charitable sector are a strange collection that appear to make little sense. "What's recoverable and what's not recoverable is difficult to understand," he says. "For example, we can recover VAT on repairs to lifeboat station doors but not to roofs. I'm sure there's a logic there, but it's not readily apparent."

Socially responsible nation

Despite his concerns, Boissier says the sector has a duty to understand the "sizeable problem" the government faces. He feels that Cameron has done well to use the big society to introduce the idea of community, and says the sector should give it time.

"Putting the idea in the political space has done some beneficial things," he says. "It's an ambitious undertaking to launch this idea that, as a nation, we are somehow going to be more socially responsible."

And he says he is not worried by the fact that little direct benefit has accrued to his own charity. The RNLI has weathered the recession relatively well, he says, although it is fighting hard for income to keep pace with inflation.

"A significant part of our income comes from legacies, and that's largely in the form of houses and shares," he says. "Unfortunately, the housing market is flat and the equity market is all over the place.

"Inflation in the price of buildings is considerably higher than the Retail Price Index, and it's the same with raw materials for boats."

The recession has inspired a "lean programme" at his charity, which he wants eventually to save up to £20m a year. So far, £13m of savings have been identified, but have led to only 25 redundancies.

Boissier believes that, in the end, the recession might provide useful lessons for charities. "We're in a time of Darwinian transition," he says. "Some charities will be able to carry on, some will merge and some will find new and innovative ways of raising money.

"There is a silver lining, although it's on a pretty black cloud: this period will undoubtedly change the charity sector, but it might change us for the better. I hope it will make us stronger."

CV

2009: Chief executive, RNLI
2006: Deputy Commander-in-Chief, Fleet
2004: Director general, Naval Support
2002: Deputy Commander, Striking Forces Nato
2000: Commander, Portsmouth Naval Base

 

[achwilan]

biased comparison or ill stated problem?

Once again you miss the whole point of carriage lauched boats. Yes by virtue of the carriage launch and recover they need good performance in shallow water, but they are unlike the RIBs they are long range all weather boats. The job they do cannot be done by RIBs. The reason for having them is for use in places where the launch station dries out so they can be launched off the beach when the tide is out. From the stations I have seen the French solution is to wait for the tide. As I said before we do have to compare like with like

No, in shallow places or tricky situations, the French solution may be to send a helicopter (Dragon or Caïman).

 

[Sybarite]

No, in shallow places or tricky situations, the French solution may be to send a helicopter (Dragon or Caïman).

Absolutely. I also indicated that.

 

[achwilan]

launching & recovering

The Shannon is not a shallow water rescue boat. It's an all weather, offshore lifeboat, which due to the nature of the coastline where it is stationed, needs to be launched and recovered from a beach at all states of the tide.

Being all weather means for example (using the actual weather during a rescue performed by one of these boats): Mid winter, force 15, forty foot breaking waves, temperatures well below freezing and an endurance in excess of 11 hours.

The French have no such capability. None of their boats compare. The Shannon is supplemented by Atlantic RIBS and inflatables where a shallow water, inshore performance is needed.

Do you actually believe the beast can be launched with 40ft breaking waves?

 

[jonjo]

I would have thought that it was vulgarity in the extreme to bean count the lives of volunteers.

Your misunderstanding of my post says something. Those zeros referred to potential failed rescues of people in distress at sea.

But then we know that you "dislike the RNLI intensely" so rational thought from you went long ago.

Due to your endeavours trawling through my RNLI posts of the past 10 years you give me the opportunity to say in another thread that my dislike of the RNLI has moderated now the organization has backed away from bad practice of the dark period.

 

[jonjo]

The recession has inspired a "lean programme" at his charity, which he wants eventually to save up to £20m a year. So far, £13m of savings have been identified, but have led to only 25 redundancies.

£20 million, that would be around the 10% saving I suggested earlier this evening.

I wonder if Searush & Co. will now rush off to Poole tomorrow morning to picket RNLI HQ and shout abuse at the RNLI chief exec as they have done at you and I?

 

[achwilan]

problem position

Absolutely. I also indicated that.

So, the actual problem, as you are trying to make it understood by our worthy forumites, is the comparison of two slightly different approaches of the life saving problem.
And the question has nothing to do with bean counting, but rather with optimizing the operational efficiency of a -constrained- global system (ie all weather, RIBs, helos, ...).
Unfortunately the debate seems to drift towards quasi-religious grounds... :-(

 

[Rigger Mortice]

Due to your endeavours trawling through my RNLI posts of the past 10 years you give me the opportunity to say in another thread that my dislike of the RNLI has moderated now the organization has backed away from bad practice of the dark period.

I can understand that you want to distance yourself from your own postings but trying to put a period of ten years distance from what you said in July of this year just shows what a poor grasp on reality you have.