If I were an RNLI donor I would not be happy.

[TimBennet]

The Shannon is not a shallow water rescue boat. It's an all weather, offshore lifeboat, which due to the nature of the coastline where it is stationed, needs to be launched and recovered from a beach at all states of the tide.

Being all weather means for example (using the actual weather during a rescue performed by one of these boats): Mid winter, force 15, forty foot breaking waves, temperatures well below freezing and an endurance in excess of 11 hours.

The French have no such capability. None of their boats compare. The Shannon is supplemented by Atlantic RIBS and inflatables where a shallow water, inshore performance is needed.

 

[Sybarite]

The Shannon is not a shallow water rescue boat. It's an all weather, offshore lifeboat, which due to the nature of the coastline where it is stationed, needs to be launched and recovered from a beach at all states of the tide..

That's not what the RNLI management say nor posters on here. They say that the jets are designed for shallow water operations.

Being all weather means for example (using the actual weather during a rescue performed by one of these boats): Mid winter, force 15, forty foot breaking waves, temperatures well below freezing and an endurance in excess of 11 hours.

Those are the same conditions that the French boats have to contend with although they perhaps limit themselves to the Beaufort scale... Force 15??

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x7wgzl_phares-du-raz-de-sein_travel.

The French have no such capability. None of their boats compare.

In shallow waters, yes they have an advantage. Offshore they can well be compared.

Keep waving the flag...

 

[Searush]

This is hysterically funny to read, thanks Sybarite, I never knew anyone so blind to information before.

I'll bet you could argue that Black is really White too.


Keep wriggling, it is wonderful to read.

 

[Bru]

Now you are not being logical; you yourself said that the UK has a much longer coastline yet the SNSM has a much larger fleet: 600 boats compared with 440.

RNLI 236 Lifeboat Stations
SNSM 185 Lifeboat Stations

RNLI 164 All Weather Lifeboats
SNSM 40 All Weather Lifeboats

RNLI 72 offshore RIBS capable up to F7
SNSM 89 offshore RIBS (25 rated to F8, 64 to F7)

RNLI 145 inshore RIBS*
SNSM 446 inshore RIBS (including Jetskis)

* This does NOT include RIBS, inflatables and jetskis operated by the RNLI Lifeguards as I cannot find data for this

So, once again, when you actually look at the data the comparison does not stack up.

The RNLI operates over four times as many All Weather Lifeboats. SNSM has just 40 capable of launching and operating in any conditions compared to 164 in the RNLI fleet

The offshore RIB fleets (boats capable of operating in up to F7/F8 conditions) are comparable in size, SNSM having the edge in both numbers and in having 25 such boats rated slightly more capable.

The SNSM has a very large fleet of inshore RIBS, inflatables and jetskis compared to the RNLI (but note that units operated by RNLI lifeguards are not included in the data above)

Once again, it is all too easy to make broad sweeping comparisons but if they are based on invalid data or assumptions they are meaningless

 

[Juan Twothree]

As for getting underway the French target is 15 minutes and the RNLI 10 minutes. Do the RNLI respect this objective or not? Judging by the video of the launch of the Shannon at Llandudno it certainly doesn't in that case. On the other hand if it's lives in shallow water that are to be saved the tractor launching of the RIB looked much faster. I posted the videos of both.
.

How do you know that was as fast as the Shannon could have launched?

It was a trial, the crew were learning their way round an unfamiliar bit of kit, and they knew no lives were in danger.

At my station (carriage launched) we have to train new tractor drivers from time to time. Inevitably, they drive the rig more slowly than those who have been doing it for years.

Suppose someone were to post a video of such a training session on Youtube, and then use it on an internet forum to criticise our slow launch time?

 

[Bru]

That's not what the RNLI management say nor posters on here. They say that the jets are designed for shallow water operations

Lets misinterpret the facts again

Shannon is, of course, designed for shallow water operations because she is designed for carriage launching on and off beaches which tend to be, lets face it, shallow!

Shannon is NOT an inshore / shallow water rescue craft. She is a fully capable All Weather Lifeboat

The French have no comparable boat in their fleet (they do NOT have a carriage launch all weather offshore capability)


And the point of the video was? Impressive storm conditions, slight lack of any relevance due to a lack of lifeboats!

In shallow waters, yes they have an advantage. Offshore they can well be compared.

Save me some time here - please indicate whether

a> you are genuinely missing the point or

b> you are being deliberately obtuse?

 

[TimBennet]

That's not what the RNLI management say nor posters on here. They say that the jets are designed for shallow water operations.

They have a 'shallow water capability' because they have to launch and recover from a beach. That's totally different to have been designed for 'shallow water rescues'. They are all weather, off shore rescue boats that are carriage launched. Please show details of which all weather French lifeboat has the same capability.

Those are the same conditions that the French boats have to contend with although they perhaps limit themselves to the Beaufort scale... Force 15??

Please show some film of one of your cheaper RIBS operating off a beach into a F12 in winter.

Keep waving the flag...

It's got nothing to do with waving any flags but merely trying to show you that the Shannon has been designed in response to a very specific set of criteria and that is; to provide an all weather boat for beach launching along stretches of the coast where neither a slipway boat nor an afloat boat is possible. The French do not try and provide such a capability. That's up to them, but unless you can find a boat with the same capabilty in every way, and then show that it's cheaper, it's very hard to make your case.

I amazed that this argument exists on a boating forum; it is about as much sense as questioning the cost of an open 60 before the Vendee Globe and then saying, 'Cor you could have got four of my Beneteaus for that sort of money. It's horses for courses and the French have clearly decided they don' want or need to have a beach launched all weather capability, so have nothing to compare.

PS The Beaufort scale use to go up to F17 at the time of that rescue, so I included it as that's how it was recorded. But I'm sure you knew that as well.

 

[jonjo]

Now you are not being logical; you yourself said that the UK has a much longer coastline yet the SNSM has a much larger fleet: 600 boats compared with 440.

Excellent point.

One day they claim the UK coastline is orders of magnitude longer so obviously the RNLI annual budget reflects that. Next they claim the French have voids in their coverage with no guaranteed response time.

Now we are expected to believe the RNLI covers the UK coast better than the orders of magnitude smaller French coast with only 50% extra craft and a bit more oomph.

 

[jonjo]

RNLI 236 Lifeboat Stations
SNSM 185 Lifeboat Stations

RNLI 164 All Weather Lifeboats
SNSM 40 All Weather Lifeboats

RNLI 72 offshore RIBS capable up to F7
SNSM 89 offshore RIBS (25 rated to F8, 64 to F7)

RNLI 145 inshore RIBS*
SNSM 446 inshore RIBS (including Jetskis)

Avoidable deaths for want of an extra £1 million annual budget:

RNLI 0
SNSM 0

 

[PilotWolf]

From my reading of the linked story, it looks like the ill feeling was the result of communication matters within the CILB organisation, not originating from the RNLI.

CLIB now have a shiny new rib, in a new boathouse much closer to the mouth of the Medina

That was one of many stories in the local press at the time, and probably one of the less 'heated' reports.

The boat/boat house isn't the point, it may well be better (but who knows - seems subjective on what makes a good rescue boat... not that many of the contributors actual have or do crew on them! ) it was the WAY in which it was done. A lot of ill feeling was caused.

PW

 

[Bru]

Avoidable deaths for want of an extra £1 million annual budget:

RNLI 0
SNSM 0

Sources and/ or references please

 

[Rigger Mortice]

Avoidable deaths for want of an extra £1 million annual budget:

RNLI 0
SNSM 0

A bit of an insult to those that have lost their lives over the years. A bit of an insult to those who continue to go out in all weathers to save others.

 

[maxi77]

Excellent point.

One day they claim the UK coastline is orders of magnitude longer so obviously the RNLI annual budget reflects that. Next they claim the French have voids in their coverage with no guaranteed response time.

Now we are expected to believe the RNLI covers the UK coast better than the orders of magnitude smaller French coast with only 50% extra craft and a bit more oomph.

Woops we are getting as bad as Sybarite as you clearly from your next post have read the difference in the mix of boats between the two services. some 75% of the French boats are for beach/inshore rescue and the RNLI has some 4 times the number of All Weather boats.

The reality is the two services have a different funding system, both of which have their merits, and both have a different way of meeting what they see as their obligations, and as such trying to make a real side by side comparison is not practical

 

[jonjo]

A bit of an insult to those that have lost their lives over the years.

Let's keep it to the last five years. Anyhow where is the insult?

A bit of an insult to those who continue to go out in all weathers to save others.

Actually it is the converse, I acknowledge both organizations are excellent after years of evolution. One achieves that excellence at a fraction of the cost.

 

[jonjo]

Woops we are getting as bad as Sybarite as you clearly from your next post have read the difference in the mix of boats between the two services. some 75% of the French boats are for beach/inshore rescue and the RNLI has some 4 times the number of All Weather boats.

If you could restate this in English I will try to reply.

The reality is the two services have a different funding system

A statement of the obvious

both have a different way of meeting what they see as their obligations

Not really, they both involve brave crews heading out sometimes in challenging weather to rescue people in danger. The primary activity is to save those in peril on the sea. Anything else you people spout is psychobabble to justify the spendthrift habits of the RNLI.

as such trying to make a real side by side comparison is not practical

See above, the fundamental comparison is how effective are they at saving those in peril on the sea. It really is that simple.

 

[Rigger Mortice]

Let's keep it to the last five years. Anyhow where is the insult?


Actually it is the converse, I acknowledge both organisations are excellent after years of evolution. One achieves that excellence at a fraction of the cost.

That simply highlights your bean counting approach to the whole issue. Simply look at a time frame that suits your purpose and ignore the history behind the RNLI.

Perhaps you should read up on some of the disasters which have occurred. try to learn how they still affect the thinking of both the RNLI and the communities which were affected.

Your earlier comment that you "dislike the RNLI intensely" says it all and contrasts with your latest concession that it is excellent. I suppose that that represents some kind of progress.

 

[Sybarite]

RNLI 236 Lifeboat Stations
SNSM 185 Lifeboat Stations

SNSM 221 stations of which 36 are seasonal

RNLI 164 All Weather Lifeboats
SNSM 40 All Weather Lifeboats

Perhaps now a reality check concerning the boats (and it's really worth looking at the cost of each):

http://www.snsm.org/presentation-de-la-flotte

The SNSM all weather boats are the 17m60 and the 15m50 boats which are being replaced by the new 17m80 boat. The Tamar is two thirds more expensive than this and it takes 2500 hp to drive it at the same speed:25 knts as the 1300 hp of the French boat - which consequently has a much greater range.


RNLI 72 offshore RIBS capable up to F7
SNSM 89 offshore RIBS (25 rated to F8, 64 to F7)

Would you describe the Vedette Classe 1, a 46' self righting unsinkable 25knt Pantocarene hulled boat, as an offshore RIB? Wow! Sounds like all weather to me even though that's not its official title. It is certainly NOT a RIB.

What about the other offshore boats - which aren't RIBs? Vedette Classe 2-1 (35') and Classe 2-2 (30'), Vedette Classe 2 NG (39' - new generation), Vedette légère (30') ? Where do they figure in your table?

As I have said before the boats are adapted to expected local conditions. Sometimes mastodonts aren't needed and its preferable to have more smaller ones more widely spread.

The total number of boats that I cited came from the respective web sites
RNLI 440 SNSM 600.

RNLI 145 inshore RIBS*
SNSM 446 inshore RIBS (including Jetskis)

The RNLI operates over four times as many All Weather Lifeboats. SNSM has just 40 capable of launching and operating in any conditions compared to 164 in the RNLI fleet

Do you honestly believe that?

..

 

[Sybarite]

Perhaps you should read up on some of the disasters which have occurred. try to learn how they still affect the thinking of both the RNLI and the communities which were affected.

Do you think that the RNLI have a monopoly of the disasters? Try looking at AberWrac'h 1986 when the whole boat crew was lost.

 

[jonjo]

That simply highlights your bean counting approach to the whole issue. Simply look at a time frame that suits your purpose and ignore the history behind the RNLI.

If the proposal is "the RNLI could do its job just as effectively over the next 5 years at 90% of what it spends today", the rational question to ask is had they spent 10% less over the previous 5 years would anyone have died or suffered life long disability as a result.

The example over the Channel indicates the answer is no.

 

[Sybarite]

Woops we are getting as bad as Sybarite as you clearly from your next post have read the difference in the mix of boats between the two services. some 75% of the French boats are for beach/inshore rescue and the RNLI has some 4 times the number of All Weather boats.

You haven't done your homework either!

The reality is the two services have a different funding system, both of which have their merits, and both have a different way of meeting what they see as their obligations, and as such trying to make a real side by side comparison is not practical.

This comparison is not new for me. I have been looking at the figures over the last 5 or 6 years and in the past the statistics were always in similar ball parks. Now, all of sudden the RNLI figures shoot up. Why? Change in the basis? UK boaters have suddenly become incompetent?