If I were an RNLI donor I would not be happy.

Sybarite said:
What thread have you been reading? As far as I can see I have been presenting facts for discussion, criticism and pointing out that there is another model which works.

To me it seems that the vitriol is coming from those who think that their sacred cow is being attacked.
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I agree and you should be congratulated for raising this topic. I object to the vitriol and rants but welcome the other informed comments.

Its obvious to me now that the RNLI make sure that their crew have the best equipment and on balance they seem to be doing a good job but threads like these are good as I am sure the RNLI are aware of it and it would stop any complacency creeping in.

I also now believe that the RNLI are run probably slightly better than many other organisations so while fiscal constraints do ensure reviews regarding value for money and I am sure that there are some areas that can be improved, but once you introduce changes there is always the risk of throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

Once again for starting this thread and thanks to the many informed contributions.
 
Sybarite said:
What thread have you been reading? As far as I can see I have been presenting facts for discussion, criticism and pointing out that there is another model which works..
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Although one might claim that you've been misrepresenting facts for effect and pointing out that there is another model which wouldn't work in the UK :D

Sybarite said:
To me it seems that the vitriol is coming from those who think that their sacred cow is being attacked.
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Where IS this vitriol?

Because from where I'm sitting this thread has been throughout a pretty damn good debate. I may vehemently disagree with much of what you (Sybarite) and others have posted and we've argued mightilty about it and continue to do so. But it hasn't descended into the usual nasty name calling and selective mis-quoting debacle ending in accusations of straw men and ad-hominems (whatever they are, some sort of neanderthal perhaps?) and so on

In fact, disagree as the two sides do (and will doubtless continue to do), the thread has been an education. I was, for example, only vaguely aware of the existence of a French rescue service and feel better informed by knowing more about it.

I'd happily turn up in the bar to meet anybody and everybody who has posted on this thread, have a drink with them and continue the argument in person over several more! Not many threads that have run to over 500 posts hereabouts I could say that about - usually there'd be more than one poster I wouldn't want to be in the same room with 'cos I'd be seriously contemplating decking them
 
Brigantia said:
Although one might claim that you've been misrepresenting facts for effect and pointing out that there is another model which wouldn't work in the UK :D
But it hasn't descended into the usual nasty name calling and selective mis-quoting debacle ending in accusations of straw men and ad-hominems (whatever they are, some sort of neanderthal perhaps?) and so on
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Not so sure about that. I have been deliberately mis-represented and pretty much all of those who fail to see eye to eye with Sybarite have been collectively insulted by several posters as out-of-touch, stick-in-the-mud chauvinists. A silly and meaningless insult to be sure, and one which contributes nothing to the "debate".

Argumentum ad hominem is a classical logical fallacy which means, in broad terms, discounting an argument on the basis of its source rather than its content. The term "ad hominem" seems to have appeared all over the internet recently as a sort of "clever" term for a personal attack. This usage is pointless and usually incorrect. If I attack you instead of addressing your argument that is not argumentum ad hominem. It is simply a personal attack. If I discount your argument on the grounds that you, the source, are ignorant, biased etc., without addressing what you have actually posted, that is argumentum ad hominem.
 
chanelyacht said:
The RNLI have a similar spread of boats - you're just not comparing the correct ones. The RNLI do trailer launch 8.5m boats - the Atlantic 85s. It (the French boat) may well be a credible alternative to the A85s, but you're comparing it's price to the Shannon.

You might want to cut and paste that Mae Culpa again. The vessel you provided a link to clearly shows outboards, and 115hp diesel outboards are, indeed, what it has. Therefore as I say, it has different operating properties to the Shannon.

.
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I was hypothesizing so thank you for correcting me. Do the RNLI ribs use diesel outboards? 115hp diesels use about 16l/h compared with 34l/h for petrol ones according to a test I read.

Of course I wasn't making a direct comparaison with the Shannon, just expressing what the French used for shallow water ie the RIBs with, as I thought, the possible alternative of the 30' boat.

[
chanelyacht said:
b] Operational speed is far from the only factor [/b]. The boats do different things when they get to scene, the endurance on long searches is far greater with the RNLI boats, as send before (countless times) the equipment fit is different, and the crew safety is different. I can task any boat to a long search - fuel is rarely the limiting factor, it deciding endurance on scene is crew capability. If they've been thrown around like socks in a washing machine, their on scene effectiveness won't be much.
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I don't know about the existing French boats but the film I saw about the 17m80 AWB certainly looked comfortable inside and the crew are strapped in place.
 
Sybarite said:
Do the RNLI ribs use diesel outboards? 115hp diesels use about 16l/h compared with 34l/h for petrol ones according to a test I read.
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No, the Atlantic 85 has 115hp petrol outboards.

Being 4-strokes, they're surprisingly economical.

Well, they surprised me anyway, as I'm more used to the 70hp 2-strokes fitted to it's predecessor, the Atlantic 75.
 
Brigantia said:
Although one might claim that you've been misrepresenting facts for effect and pointing out that there is another model which wouldn't work in the UK :D



Where IS this vitriol?

Because from where I'm sitting this thread has been throughout a pretty damn good debate. I may vehemently disagree with much of what you (Sybarite) and others have posted and we've argued mightilty about it and continue to do so. But it hasn't descended into the usual nasty name calling and selective mis-quoting debacle ending in accusations of straw men and ad-hominems (whatever they are, some sort of neanderthal perhaps?) and so on

In fact, disagree as the two sides do (and will doubtless continue to do), the thread has been an education. I was, for example, only vaguely aware of the existence of a French rescue service and feel better informed by knowing more about it.

I'd happily turn up in the bar to meet anybody and everybody who has posted on this thread, have a drink with them and continue the argument in person over several more! Not many threads that have run to over 500 posts hereabouts I could say that about - usually there'd be more than one poster I wouldn't want to be in the same room with 'cos I'd be seriously contemplating decking them
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That would seem to me to be reasonable tone on which to put this thread to rest.

PS Being retired, I don't have as much time as the others to participate...
 
Sybarite said:
It's not an either / or situation. The SNSM have a range of AWBs including a 25knt 30' boat which could also (I imagine) be launched like a RIB. And they only cost €100k and so you could have 62 for every Shannon system.

http://www.snsm.org/flotte/vedette-legere
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But the reality is they don't do that, they keep the boats in tide bound harbours and docks, I wonder why?
 
Sybarite said:
I was hypothesizing so thank you for correcting me. Do the RNLI ribs use diesel outboards? 115hp diesels use about 16l/h compared with 34l/h for petrol ones according to a test I read.

Of course I wasn't making a direct comparaison with the Shannon, just expressing what the French used for shallow water ie the RIBs with, as I thought, the possible alternative of the 30' boat.
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OK, fair enough - I obviously thought by comparing the price of one with another you were comparing boat to boat. Outboard diesels do have a fuel efficiency benefit, but the also have a weight penalty.

The RNLI did run 30m commercial hulled cabin boats for a while (the Brede class), primarily for estuaries or sheltered harbours - and actually I'm a big fan of cabin ribns (the Brede wasn't) simply because they provide so much better crew comfort and casualty protection against the elements. That's not a criticism of the RNLI, but is an observation.


I don't know about the existing French boats but the film I saw about the 17m80 AWB certainly looked comfortable inside and the crew are strapped in place.
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The SNSM AWBs are nice bits of kit - but they're more comparable with the RNLI Severns than the Tamars / Shannons - and the Severn design and technology is 20+ years old now.
 
chanelyacht said:
OK, fair enough - I obviously thought by comparing the price of one with another you were comparing boat to boat. Outboard diesels do have a fuel efficiency benefit, but the also have a weight penalty.

The RNLI did run 30m commercial hulled cabin boats for a while ....
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Wow...as big as that? Must have cost a fortune! :p
 
Outboard diesels do have a fuel efficiency benefit
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Does someone make a diesel outboard? I know Yanmar used to do a 30 or 35hp, but they were ludicrously expensive and despite being 'listed', haven't actually been in production for years. The four stroke petrol outboard effectively killed off any commercial interest in the diesel outboard as far as I know.

The US Seals are supposed to have a multi-fuel / submersible / all signing, all dancing outboard, but I've never seen one for sale.
 
Litotes said:
Not so sure about that. I have been deliberately mis-represented and pretty much all of those who fail to see eye to eye with Sybarite have been collectively insulted by several posters as out-of-touch, stick-in-the-mud chauvinists. A silly and meaningless insult to be sure, and one which contributes nothing to the "debate".

Argumentum ad hominem is a classical logical fallacy which means, in broad terms, discounting an argument on the basis of its source rather than its content. The term "ad hominem" seems to have appeared all over the internet recently as a sort of "clever" term for a personal attack. This usage is pointless and usually incorrect. If I attack you instead of addressing your argument that is not argumentum ad hominem. It is simply a personal attack. If I discount your argument on the grounds that you, the source, are ignorant, biased etc., without addressing what you have actually posted, that is argumentum ad hominem.
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Wonder if Toad is reading this?
 
Litotes said:
Argumentum ad hominem is a classical logical fallacy which means, in broad terms, discounting an argument on the basis of its source rather than its content. The term "ad hominem" seems to have appeared all over the internet recently as a sort of "clever" term for a personal attack. This usage is pointless and usually incorrect. If I attack you instead of addressing your argument that is not argumentum ad hominem. It is simply a personal attack. If I discount your argument on the grounds that you, the source, are ignorant, biased etc., without addressing what you have actually posted, that is argumentum ad hominem.
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im hardly likely to believe that, coming as it does, solely from you!
 
chanelyacht said:
Although going back far enough, the RNLI did have an offshore cruising boat which I believe was 70 or 100 feet, designed to be lived on.
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Is that the Clyde class boat - around the era of the Waveneys?
Don't think the concept worked very well, but two seem to have been in service for about 20 years. Be good to know a bit more about them.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clyde_class_lifeboat

So something new the RNLI tried out way back in '65 - wasn't it around that time they picked up (and ran) with the IRB idea, as well?
 
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