I think I might be taking my life in my hands but....

Re: I think I might be taking my life in my hands but.... #2

Because if the yacht was under sail, the ship would be the give-way vessel and would be required to alter course to port to pass behind the yacht. As you rightly point out, once a closing situation has ocured, the colregs apply regardless of the TSS. In practice he may or may not take action to avoid the yacht, but if he does it will be by a course change to pass astern and the yacht must take this possibility into account.
 
Re: I think I might be taking my life in my hands but.... #2

This is hopeless from a learners point of view because the experienced members still don't all agree so I've joined the RYA to try and get a straight answer , but the best I can get at the moment is this from their site

If you go boating on or near the coast the COLREGs (International Regulations for Preventing Collisions at Sea” will apply to you.

"Part A Rule 1 Application
a) These rules shall apply to all vessels upon the high seas and in all waters connected therewith navigable by seagoing vessels”

You must therefore be sure that you know the rules well enough to be clear when you are the stand on vessel, when you are the give way vessel and what the correct action to take is.

As well as these steering and sailing rules, the COLREGs dictate what day shapes and navigation lights a vessel must display to indicate its status to other vessels and when and what sound and light signals it must make.

Many nautical publications include core information from the COLREGs. The full text of the regulations is available from the RYA Shop in our publication G2 - International Regulations for Preventing Collisions at Sea. This book has been prepared with the pleasure craft skipper in mind and includes notes to help yachtsmen interpret and apply the rules.

Might is right?
Before you can apply the COLREGs you need to establish whether or not a potential collision situation exists. Then you need to establish what action is expected of the vessels involved, when the action should be taken and whether the action of the give-way vessel alone will be sufficient to prevent the collision. A key element in this process is deciding whether the other vessel has seen you.

Questions such as “Have the crew on the yacht sailing towards you checked under the genoa recently?” should spring to mind. If the vessel in question is large commercial ship, consider the size of your vessel and the distance it is away from you. If you cannot see the bridge of the ship from you boat, the chances are that the Officer of the Watch on that ship cannot see you!

The COLREGs do not give one vessel "right of way" over another and are clear that the stand on vessel must also take action if the action of the give way vessel alone is not sufficient to prevent a collision (or if the give way vessel takes no action). All the rules, relevant to a situation must be considered before decisions are made, as must the situation and the handling characteristics of the boats involved.

Apologies if I wasn't supposed to copy / paste it .

The way I read this is that it's basically up to me as skipper to decide what to do as in these particular circumstances , and I should use the colregs as guidance only
 
Re: I think I might be taking my life in my hands but.... #2

Apologies if I caused confusion by blathering on while under the impression that the yacht was sailing. In my defense it appears that several others did too. The situation is actually very clear cut.

I strongly recommend this book.



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Blimey!

Well I am glad I asked the question. Thanks to all who took the time to respond, I find it very helpful to discuss situations hypothetically so that I have a clear picture in my mind as to what I would do in any given situation. I am of the opinion that when at sea I will always be learning and the experience of others is invaluable.

Thanks...

David
 
hopefully I haven't caused any bad feelings with anyone for my attempts to get my head round this one though , I get the feeling that some just weren't interested in helping so it's back to the books
 
Re: I think I might be taking my life in my hands but.... #2

[ QUOTE ]
>But a 30ft yacht insisting on his "rights" because he's sailing when a ship is within a TSS ... I humbly submit is foolish<

My understanding that is that a 30 footer (less than 20m) has no "rights" on a ship that is proceeding in a TSS.

[/ QUOTE ]

I do not like the adherence to 20m / 30ft / what ever size .... Why ? Do I have a tape measure when at sea to measure the other boat ?? So I look upon each vessel as a vessel to comply with the Colregs as far as possible ... IN KEEPING WITH GOOD SEAMANSHIP .... yes I shouted those last words - because that is what seems to be lost so often here in the rule quoting.

As OOW on ship .... I don't care if you are 20m or 5m ... to me you are another vessel to act as necessary to avoid collision. I cannot from a bridge over 100ft above water assess your LOA !! - Lets be honest literally only another yatch can assess anothers Yacht loa !! Perspective plays funny games ....

I'm sorry Twister Ken ............ most times I respect your posts - but on this one I have to say bo*****s. You first of all advise people to turn to port because you say they will contravene Rule 10 b i .... which you used in error. I hope no newbie takes that advise ........
Second you compounded it by repeating and even arguing with so many others here who have shipping experience.

Honest Sorry ... I cannot hold back any longer ... TK - normally I would not argue - but this time ...... Dear oh Dear ...

When I read some replies ... I quietly say to myself ... I am glad that I am no longer an OOW on bridge of ship ... it was bad enough before when few yachts crossed the channel ... but now if people are honestly crossing with such ideas and actions - no wonder YOU guys moan about third world OOW's - who literally observe Colregs BY THE BOOK .... as that it is what they are taught and demanded of them.

<rant over>

/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif ..... /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif
 
Re: I think I might be taking my life in my hands but.... #2

[ QUOTE ]
Ye Gods.

I haven't read through all of this, so it may have been said above. But turning to starboard to pass astern when you are stand on vessel is a HUGE no no, because if the give way vessel takes proper action, he will be turning to port to pass astern of you. So you both turn into each others path. the colregs specifically advise against this.

Now I am fully aware that this is in a TSS, but there is ambiguity in the words 'shall not impede' and anyway I would not assume that the bloke on the bridge of the ship even knew he was in a TSS. Given the likely speed differential, an **early** turn to port would be acceptable. Far preferable is to slow right down or stop, or even turn and retrace your steps.

[/ QUOTE ]

When would your scenario occur ???? It is absolute rubbish ... as a turn to starboard to pass astern indicates your are on port side / bow of other vessel - so makes you give way vessel ................ the other vessel especially merchant vessel would be so reluctant to turn to port unless absolutely forced to ...

Oh Dear ! It gets worse !!
#
 
Re: I think I might be taking my life in my hands but.... #2

So, sbc, you're OOW on a ship proceeding correctly down a TSS lane, following another ship at perhaps 2 miles range. A yacht, on a potential collision course with the ship in front of you, turns towards you allow that ship to pass. The yacht is now, apparently, heading more or less directly for you at a combined closing speed of approx 30kts. What do you do next? Apart from screaming about WAFIs.

I'm genuinely interested to know.
 
Re: I think I might be taking my life in my hands but.... #2

[ QUOTE ]
So, sbc, you're OOW on a ship proceeding correctly down a TSS lane, following another ship at perhaps 2 miles range. A yacht, on a potential collision course with the ship in front of you, turns towards you allow that ship to pass. The yacht is now, apparently, heading more or less directly for you at a combined closing speed of approx 30kts. What do you do next? Apart from screaming about WAFIs.

I'm genuinely interested to know.

[/ QUOTE ]

As its a a developing close 1/4's situation - I would keep an eye on him and expect him to round my stern IF my speed etc, is such that he can't make it .........

What's the beef .... now you want to add extras to try and get out of the hole you dug yourself into ....??

Basically - the yacht is on the port bow of everything - tough titty .... he has to find his way through without endangering himself or others paintwork ! /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Sorry but the yacht is playing in "big-boys" playground which means Port to Port unless something serious / significant interferes with it. Sounds dismissive ... but sorry it has come to that.

Now I suppose you will reply .... but there is another ship astern of the second one ... and another and another ... Well welcome to the big boys world.

I would assume that your crossing of channel and using the turn to port idea you promulgate has been accepted by OOW's more for its WAFI aspect than anything else.... why do you think OOW's and many Masters have scathing opinions of average yotties ??

Please do not add to the shite-pile .... there are enough yachts out there lost to idiotic decisions ...

Problem is when an accident does occur the Colregs very nicely split the onus ... where the later rule brings in "action of give way vessel alone is not enough etc. " that stand on vessel then has obligation to avoid or lessen collision ... a real shite-bag hand-out ... Good that it allows stand on vessel to take action ... but also opens up the courts to blame them as well ... as NO marine accident is 100% one vessel when it comes to collisions ... it is always %age splits ...

TK give up - you are on a losing wicket ... /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif
 
Re: I think I might be taking my life in my hands but.... #2

You still haven't told me what you'd do as OOW when you find yourself in a TSS with a yacht heading the wrong way up the lane and just a few minutes away from your bow. I repeat, I'm genuinely interested to know.

BTW, I do know it's a big boys' world, and that's why I want to play by their TSS rules, not make up my own.

I still maintain it's safer to run parallel, slowly, in the same direction as the merchantman (or men), until overtaken and it's safe to resume a crossing course. If I'm wrong please explain why, from a colregs, TSS and watchkeeper's POV.
 
Re: I think I might be taking my life in my hands but.... #2

[ QUOTE ]
The COLREGs do not give one vessel "right of way" over another and are clear that the stand on vessel must also take action if the action of the give way vessel alone is not sufficient to prevent a collision (or if the give way vessel takes no action). All the rules, relevant to a situation must be considered before decisions are made, as must the situation and the handling characteristics of the boats involved.

Apologies if I wasn't supposed to copy / paste it .

The way I read this is that it's basically up to me as skipper to decide what to do as in these particular circumstances , and I should use the colregs as guidance only

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you need to be clear about the wording of your conclusion. The Colregs are not for guidance only. However their application may be harder than the rules first indicate. Yachts crossing a TSS is probably a particularly good one to show this!
 
Re: I think I might be taking my life in my hands but.... #2

[ QUOTE ]
When would your scenario occur ????

[/ QUOTE ]

As I said, when the yacht is under sail. Under those circumstaces, the ship would be correct to alter course to port.
 
Re: I think I might be taking my life in my hands but.... #2

Surely if the yacht has made a turn to std to avoid your ship then he is no longer on a collision course?
 
Re: I think I might be taking my life in my hands but.... #2

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
When would your scenario occur ????

[/ QUOTE ]

As I said, when the yacht is under sail. Under those circumstaces, the ship would be correct to alter course to port.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you seriously suggesting that a yacht under sail in a TSS area shall stand on to a merchant vessel ???????

In open waters ok .... but sorry - on yer bike in a TSS area ... the TSS is there for good reason and normally because the area is restrictive ...

Sorry but I'm not rising to that ....
/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif
 
Re: I think I might be taking my life in my hands but.... #2

[ QUOTE ]
Are you seriously suggesting that a yacht under sail in a TSS area shall stand on to a merchant vessel ???????

[/ QUOTE ]

No! of course not.

But in those cicumstances the yacht should consider the possibility that the ship will alter to port.
 
Re: I think I might be taking my life in my hands but.... #2

I'm trying to keep out of this one for now , just trying to watch and learn and so far all I've learned is that nobody can agree on what to do /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif
 
Re: I think I might be taking my life in my hands but.... #2

[ QUOTE ]
You still haven't told me what you'd do as OOW when you find yourself in a TSS with a yacht heading the wrong way up the lane and just a few minutes away from your bow. I repeat, I'm genuinely interested to know.

BTW, I do know it's a big boys' world, and that's why I want to play by their TSS rules, not make up my own.

I still maintain it's safer to run parallel, slowly, in the same direction as the merchantman (or men), until overtaken and it's safe to resume a crossing course. If I'm wrong please explain why, from a colregs, TSS and watchkeeper's POV.

[/ QUOTE ]

But I DID answer ... literally in the first few words ... that I would keep an eye on him and expect him to round my stern.

He is in same difficult spot as a ferry or other vessel that has to try and get through ... he has to judge when he can "get through" between ... sounds bad I know - but thats the practical of it ...
In fact all you do with your port turn is remove the question you pose - but solution is still same .... you have difficulty getting through the procession of vessels. You still have to pass astern of each one ... so why not try and comply as closely as possible with the rules as the OOW would expect you to do ...

Or maybe you sail in strange waters where other applies ???

I have on many occasion when sailing on Coasters had this situation .... trying to get across TSS and ship after ship proceeding along the TSS ... tough titty ... it's starboard turn and then back on course as soon as possible to cross as quickly as possible ... what the hell do I want to go down TSS for ?? The combined speed differential means I travel far less UP than if I do as you suggest DOWN and time UP is far less ... frustrating yes ... but far less distance, fuel, time and I comply with regs.

Sorry TK - but again you are trying to get out of the hole you dug !!
 
Re: I think I might be taking my life in my hands but.... #2

SBC - I've been thinking about this. Bear with me!

Sticking strictly with the Colregs at the moment:

Are we saying that vessels crossing a TSS should do what is necessary not to find themselves in a situation where there is a risk of collision, as when you get to this then the 'normal' rules of the road apply - ie power gives way to sail etc unless restricted/constrained etc.

If this is the case then heading changes prior to a risk of collision can be done in the most seamanly manner - be it to port of std. as appropriate - ie it is not covered by the rules.

Are we then going on to say that if a risk of collion does develop we as good yachtsmen according to the regs should stand on, but for reasons of sense/self preservation etc. do then sensible thing - don't stand on but make changes that are obvious to the OOW.

Is it a bit like driving along a road where you have right of way but letting somebody out of the side road because it makes more sense at the time?

If this is true then it does beg the question about how you judge that you have gone from a 'pre-collision situation' to a collision situatuion' where the rules have suddenly changed?

From a ship's perspective this is presumably different from the perspective of a slower, more nimble craft.
 
Re: I think I might be taking my life in my hands but.... #2

i would say you have it right.

I don't disagree with anything sbc has said - and i don't hink he disagrees with me ! ???

My only addition to your summary is that, if after a close quarters situation has arisen, you are the stand on vessel but choose - wisely - not to push your luck, then you should always consider that the ship does not know that you have decided to give way and he may be busy doing 'the correct thing'. You must allow for that possibility when deciding which way to turn.
 
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