I think I might be taking my life in my hands but....

Re: If you are able to count the rivets, forget the Colregs

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No rivetted ships in commercial service now. As late as the 1960's, rivets were used for frames and for higher tensile sheer strakes, but those ships have turned into concrete rebars long since.

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... make an absolute statement and some smart arse will prove you wrong. The good old Waverley is i commercial sea-going passenger ship complete with rivets!
 
I appreciate what you're saying Nigel but I'm trying to learn which is best and I'm now looking at two interpretations of the regs , so how is anyone supposed to learn from the people that know if they can't agree over which way to turn
 
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how is anyone supposed to learn from the people that know

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I think you'll find, with deeper consideration of what has been posted, that the people that know are entirely in agreement.....

"He who knows, and knows he knows - he is a wise man seek him!
He who knows, and knows not he knows - he is asleep, wake him!
He who knows not, and knows he knows not - he is a child, teach him!
He who knows not, and knows not he knows not - he is a fool, shun him!"


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I'm now looking at two interpretations of the regs , so how is anyone supposed to learn from the people that know if they can't agree over which way to turn

[/ QUOTE ]Dave, you shouldn't rely on other people's interpretation, or misinterpretation, on an internet forum. You'd be better reading the Regs themselves - HM govt version is here, including the lights, shapes and signals annexes.

As skipper, you have to make your own decision, as informed by the Regs. Under the circumstances described in the original question, I'd slow down if there was enough space, or <u>clearly</u> turn to starboard to go behind the ship, and then resume my course of 90° to the TSS. That would be my decision, based on my reading and understanding of the Regs.

The Forum is great for information, but misinterpretation of issues like this can lead to tragedy IMHO.

PS While I think the Regs are clear IMHO, it's dead easy to make a wrong decision in the heat of the moment. Well, I know that I certainly have. Which is why we need to try and familiarise ourselves with the regs, and not base decisions on some half-remembered opinions from a forum, with errmm, all due respect to forum friends.
 
I've been reading up on the regs for a while although I'm hopeless at remembering word for word or anywhere close , but my interpretation is that as I'm not joining the TSS but trying to get through it , I have to do this as fast as possible without geting in the way of the heavies , so I would turn 90 to stbd to show the OOW my intentions then bring her round astern of her , allowing plenty of clearance but not too much so the next heavy in the line thought I was a hazard . Sorry to the rule book huggers but I would want to be the hell out of there as fast as possible
 
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Sorry to the rule book huggers

[/ QUOTE ]I really do not understand your point, given that (IMHO) a temporary turn to starboard is the correct thing to do anyway.

But the comment about "rule book huggers" indicates to me me that you're rather missing the point about ColRegs which are designed to allow for predictable behaviours and outcomes. Once you start making up your own rules then you are radically increasing the opportunities for misunderstanding of your intentions, and, consequently, the possibility of collision.
 
sorry , not my intention , but according to some in this thread I would be breaking the rules by doing what I think is the sensible thing . I view it differently to them that's all .
 
Bill , you know me better than that , the only time I'm serious is when I'm serious , the rest of the time I'm either joking , offering help , asking for help , or just having a laugh ,,,,,,, and yes , we must get together so you know what I mean if nothing else ,,,,,,,,, beers on you ????
 
Dave,

Mirelle agrees with your interpretation, Nigel SBC agrees, Sgeir agrees, DuncanMack agrees, Pye-End agrees, Freestyle agrees, Bedouin and Sailfree agree, Davydine seems to agree, Dyflin agrees, JackIron does, TwisterKen also is on the side of the angels, as is Skysail, same as RustyKnight and NPF1....and if that does not convince you, so do I!

Go get some sleep!

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"Campbells' 'Yachtsman's Guide To The Collision Rules' is arguably the best yottie guide to learning and understanding the ColRegs that I've encountered in 36 years of doing this."

Thanks for the kind comments Billobagins /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif It would be nice if more people would read it!
I too would, without doubt, turn to starboard to pass port to port. If you turn to port, you are making the other vessel become an overtaking vessel, who is then obliged to keep clear.
IMHO you are not going to be accused of going the wrong way up the TSS by turning to starboard, since you are just keeping clear of the other vessel. If you are crossing the TSS then you are not "using" it, so cannot be considered to be "going the wrong way".
If in doubt, always pass port to port......

John Campbell
 
>That rule 10 (b) (i) applies to vessels following the TSS ... <

So it would be OK to sail the wrong way up a TSS lane, on the basis that you weren't following it?

In my view, in a TSS you are either using it, or crossing it, and if the latter, you are doing so 'on a heading as nearly as practicable at right angles to the general direction of traffic flow.'

In this TSS situation, turning to stbd is likely to put you bow-to-bow with the next yacht crusher in the queue, coming along at 25 knots.

I'd still turn to port, then idle along slowly until sufficiently overtaken that I could resume my crossing course passing safely astern.

Bear in mind the original question is about TSS, not general 'shipping lanes'.

And yes, whatever the situation, keep clear of heavy metal is my guiding principle. But I assume we're not talking close quarters stuff here (in which case I'd b*gger off in which ever direction safety lay), rather a prudent alteration before any danger exists.
 
Sorry Ken , but a turn to port by my thinking is going to breach one of the other regs in that I'll be a prolonged hazard by staying there longer than needed , heave to and let it pass doesn't give a clear indication of my intentions , even a 360 turn isn't definately seen so the best way for me in my situation as a novice would be a 90 to stbd and bring her round to stern of the heavy well clear of him and the next crusher
 
In all that has been written, an important point seems to have been missed: the difference (in the meaning of the rules) been and PROCEED and HEAD.
You should not proceed the wrong way along a TSS, but it is not a contravention to head the wrong way, briefly, to convey to another vessel that you are taking action as a give-way-vessel.
So turn to starboard; present a different aspect (and nav. lt.); reduce revs to the minimum for steerage (if you want to stay close to your planned track); then when risk of collision is eliminated, resume course and speed.
Just read the rules with understanding of the precise meaning of the terms; think of how you appear to other vessels; use seamanship and common sense! Simple, really.
 
Thats fair and well in most situations, but the trick is surely to assess the big picture too.... don't just automatically assume the turn to starboard is the correct action regardless of circumstances... it depends upon other factors such as what is behind the other vessel off your starboard side, what seperation scheme layout you are in, and in rough weather, potentially even what wind and wave direction you are facing given current conditions...

I agree, the safest action is to nearly always to turn to starboard, but it might not always be the best course of action.....

For example, take a look at Sandettie Junction where the TSS for the southern north sea and the Zebrugge schemes merge..... often on an Oostende passage you go barely just north east of this convergence, and a turn to starboard could place you into the junction hence turning the channel you have to cross from 10nm wide to nearer 20nm with traffic coming from different directions to boot.... this might not be sensible... yes the time at risk iwould be slightly longer, but its minimal really, a difference of a couple or three minutes....

Equally, to have a balanced argument the reverse applies a bit further north at Noord Hinder junction, where a turn to port could make life very complicated!

As has been said above, it is interpretation in the context of good seamanship that counts.... rather than slavish adherence to the rule regardless of circumstances...

So, summary IMHO, yes, the turn to starboard is most predictable, and minimises time at risk, but there are circumstances where it doesn't make the best sense and being 'colreg savvy' enough to understand when these times occur is 'seamanlike'
 
agreed , but that comes with experience which I can't get till I'm on the water so the best I can hope for at the moment is that I can learn from old sea dogs like yourself and others , by talking it over and studying the theory . Pity more aren't willing to help in the process after all , I thought this was the best place to learn . As far as I can tell it's all down to interpretation and in most circumstances the best way is to get through as fast as possible , as safely as possible , without presenting yourself as a hazard to anyone else , and without putting yourself in danger , regardless to which way I turn . Does that sum it up ?
 
Not aimed at you Trevera, but a more interesting question might be if the ship were coming from the port side, going the correct way up a TSS.

Would people turn to port to go round the stern still?
 
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