I think I might be taking my life in my hands but....

Re: Back to basics

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As to Whipper-snappers possibility of sail vs power etc. - still I maintain my original comments

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OK, thankyou.

To clarify. If I am under sail with a ship coming up the TSS on my stbd side, you would be happy that I alter course to stbd and pass behind? ie ignore the remote possibility that he is about to alter course to pass behind me?

In those circumstances, my instinct would have been slow or stop if far enough away for the consequences to be clear in good time, or turn 180 if not.
 
Re: I think I might be taking my life in my hands but.... #2

>10 a) says that if you are in a collision situation then rule 10 no longer applies - ie there are no requirements to follow the direction of flow.<

Thank you, so it does "10 (a) This rule applies to traffic separation schemes adopted by the Organization and does not relieve any vessel of her obligation under any other rule.

However, no other rule states that in a crossing situation the give way vessel should turn to starboard.

I still contend that by turning to port and awaiting being overtaken, one is complying both with 15 and 10, with the important side benefit that you are reducing closing speed with the next vessel following the TSS.

Why is it wrong to do that?
 
Re: Incidentally...

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I submit a 90º turn to port, to avoid a collision AND comply with rule 10 on TSS is the better alternative. I'm still waiting for someone to explain why that's wrong.

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Ken, I think that what is wrong here is your interpretation of 10(b). Look at the way in which Rule 10 is broken down:

(a) is application.

(b) is about vessels "using" the scheme, i.e. using the scheme to travel down its length. (b)(i), (ii) and (iii) all have obvious application to vessels with that intention.

(c) is about vessels crossing the scheme.

(d) is about inshore traffic zones

(e) is about separation zones

(f) is about the terminations of the scheme

(g) is about anchoring

(h) is about <u>not</u> using the scheme

(i) is about fishing

(j) is about responsibilities between large and small vessels

(k) and (l) are both about vessels retricted in ability to manoevre.

Now look at those clauses to decide which ones are applicable to your case. (a) applies, of course, but tells us nothing. (b) doesn't apply, because you are not "using" the scheme in their terms. (c) certainly applies, so cross as nearly as practicable at right angles to the flow. (d) to (i), (k) and (l) don't apply here, but (j) certainly does. So the applicable bits say:

'Cross as nearly as practicable at right angles, but do not impede the passage of large ships'

Rule 8(f)(i) says that if you are required to not impede the passage of another vessel then you should take early action to allow sufficient sea room for her passage. There have been interpretations along the lines that if the other vessel has to alter course then you have impeded her passage.

It's easier to think about this by considering what would happen at night. There are three basic possibilities: turn left, turn right, or slow down (stopping being the extreme case of slowing down).

If you turn left, then (depending on how far you turn) the other vessel will either still see your green light or will see your stern light. In either case, she will remain the give way vessel under Rules 13 or 15. Yes, you may have moved off the collision course, and you will know that, but for the other vessel it will now take time for her to work out the changed situation. Even ARPA isn't instantaneous.

Slowing or stopping gives the same situation. Until the other vessel has realised your change she will be uncertain of your action.

Turning to starboard, though, is different. You immediately bring the two vessels into a red to red situation, which both vessels know is safe. Now hold it in that state until the other vessels red changes to white, then get back on track.

I think that the only place that you might disagree is in the interpretation of "using" in 10(b). Looking at the way by which the other clauses split up the requirements of Rule 10, I am confident of my interpretation. What makes you thimk I'm wrong?
 
Re: Back to basics

>why put yourself and others in danger ?<

How would a turn to port, paralleling the course of the overtaking ship, put myself and others in danger? I repeat that the crossing vessels rule does not mandate a turn to starboard, only suggests passing astern, which it would be my intention to do after being overtaken.
 
Re: Back to basics

>What makes you thimk I'm wrong? <

Peter, I don't think you're wrong. Nor do I think I'm wrong. I think this an area were there are several 'right' answers. My problem with turning to starboard is that it might then put me in a bows-on situation with another vessel in the TSS which I can't yet see.

As to my turn-to-port situtation at night my turn would be 90º, so the merchantman will see my green change to white and will immediately know (if looking!) that I have altered away from a collision course.

I really do have a horror of going contra down a TSS.

It would be interesting to ask, say, Dover CG its views. Anyone have a contact there?
 
Re: Back to basics

Maybe it is rule 15 that we are actually debating?

Of course you have to bear in mind rule 14, but 15 does not require a vessel to turn to std in a crossing situation. However all of the commentry and teachings that I have ever seen show the give way vessel turning to std.

Interesting.

Of course it is all completely irrelevant is it will be blowing F6 from your starbourd side; your wife has just been sick; your son has just lobbed over a fender crying 'man overboard' and quietly mumbles "let's see how you like it dad".
 
Re: Back to basics

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As to my turn-to-port situtation at night my turn would be 90º, so the merchantman will see my green change to white and will immediately know (if looking!) that I have altered away from a collision course.

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I somehow don't think so..... and will be interested to read the views of the qualified Master Mariners lurking nearby, giggling in near hysteria at all this 'pants'.

Of course, you could always turn 90º to port, engage reverse, and reverse around the stern of the VLCC or Panamax thingy approaching you. Honour satisfied!

And that would keep them in puzzled smiles for weeks on the Ships Monthly forum.

What's the name of your boat....? I wouldn't be surprised if peeps started to follow you about, to see what you're going to do next.

/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
 
Re: Back to basics

>I wouldn't be surprised if peeps started to follow you about, to see what you're going to do next.<

They'd have to wait a while to catch me in TSS. Only dunnit twice (there and back) in the Dover Straits, and it was a bit like playing chicken on the M25. Which is why I'd be very reluctant to turn upstream, into some one else's bulbous bow.
 
Re: I think I might be taking my life in my hands but.... #2

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>But a 30ft yacht insisting on his "rights" because he's sailing when a ship is within a TSS ... I humbly submit is foolish<

My understanding that is that a 30 footer (less than 20m) has no "rights" on a ship that is proceeding in a TSS.

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Well of course Colregs gives no rights to either side - it imposes obligations on both. If you "give way" when you are "stand on" then you are breaking the law just as much as if you "stand on" when you should "give way" (although one is usually much safer than the other).

The rules about "impede" are hopelessly vague, even after the 1987 "clarification".

Rule 8 makes it crystal clear that "if approaching so close that risk of collision exists" then normal stand-on/give-way priorities exist irrespective of whether it is a TSS.

Now the only obligation that the rules place on the vessel required "not to impede" is that he allows the vessel of passage sufficient sea room to manoeuvre safely. For all but the biggest ships in a TSS - in the absence of other shipping - there is plenty of room for them to manoeuvre so you are not required by the letter of the rules to give way to him if he can safely give way to you.

However this is further complicated by the fact that that view of the rules is not universally agreed - and there is no doubt that the idea that yachts should always give way to big ships is sufficiently common that it may be regarded as a de facto rule and so "the ordinary practice or custom seamen"(or whatever the wording is).

So in any situation involving "Do not impede" the prudent skipper has to be aware of this ambiguity and act accordingly. The danger is if both vessels decide to "give way" to the other then they will end up altering course towards each other and are in danger of colliding head on.

So then if you choose to "give way" when you are actually "stand on" you need to in such a way as not to increase the danger if the give-way vessel does give-way
 
Re: Back to basics

10/10 for tenacity Ken.

If you consider the time frames I calculated please turn to starboard and pass astern of the ship within about 5 mins rather than trying to run with the big boys!

The risk of ships is just not ajust collision but the effect of being swamped by a bow wave.

I want to be as far away from the big boys as possible as quickly as possible and that is achieved by maintaining speed (not being a stationery duck in the water giving confusing average speeds to the ships MARPAs) crossing safely behind a ship under my own power and judgement and thereby crossing the lane at right angle as quickly as possible.

The last thing I would want would be running in the midst of a lot of boats coming down on me at a closing speed of 20kts and I have little ability to go port or starboard as my 6kts is all being used up trying to keep going in their direction.

I therefore reiterate - maintain speed, cross a boats wake and then when closing you will be in the conventional Port to Port situation. If it all went tits up and I was ever trying to avoid a ship I would be at maximum speed at right angles to that ship's track to get as far away as possible for the "closest point of approach" and as I would not cross within 2mls of the bow this might mean that I reverse my course away from the ship if I would otherwise be within 500m of its side. I would never try to outrun a ship while trying to get away! A small yachts speed is negligible to that of the ships.

Now stop trying to dig yourself out of a hole and confusing the new comers on here as you are normally one of the people whose opinion and views I hold in high esteem but on this one Ken I am afraid you are completely wrong and in my opinion your advice is positively dangerous.

I would add that for those who do slow down to let the ship pass in front that is also a correct answer but IMHO not the "best" answer for the reasons given.

Slightly different situation, as not a shipping lane and I was under sail, but once when crossing to Cherbourg (where there is often a stream of ships) some do obey the collision regs and on one occassion when I started to ease the sails to slow down (assuming the boat would maintain course and pass ahead) found the boat turning by slow amounts (big ships can only turn by slow amounts!) to cross my stern. I wacked on the engine and passed ahead but closer than my normal safe allowance.
 
Re: Back to basics

I agree 100% with SBC. If you see a small boat ahead, and maybe he is slowing down, and maybe he has turned to port because he has seen us, but maybe he has caught a fish or has some similar reason. While he is still forward of the bows, he is still a "threat". Who knows what he will do next?
It would probably scare the crap out of a few WAFIs if they could see how poorly they usually show on the radar. We may be plotting 15 or 20 targets on the ARPA, and most probably the yacht is not one of them.
Seeing the small boat altering to port will not make our life any easier. If he were to do, what in my opinion is the right thing, and make a turn to starboard, showing me his port side, then I am pretty certain that he has seen me and will go behind me. While he is still faffing about ahead, I have no idea what his next actions might be.
A clear and obvious turn to starboard, to pass port to port is the proper thing to do IMHO.
John
 
Re: Back to basics

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Peter, I don't think you're wrong. Nor do I think I'm wrong. I think this an area were there are several 'right' answers. My problem with turning to starboard is that it might then put me in a bows-on situation with another vessel in the TSS which I can't yet see.

As to my turn-to-port situtation at night my turn would be 90º, so the merchantman will see my green change to white and will immediately know (if looking!) that I have altered away from a collision course.

I really do have a horror of going contra down a TSS.

It would be interesting to ask, say, Dover CG its views. Anyone have a contact there?

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Although I would turn to stbd myself I don't think there is anything wrong with the turn to port solution - and in certain circumstances it may be better.

I don't think the regs prohibit you turning to stbd in order to avoid another ship.

Also one problem with turning to port is that you may then appear to following ships that you are actually following the TSS rather than crossing it which means they could be taken unawares when you resume course after the first ship has passed you
 
Re: Back to basics

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As to Whipper-snappers possibility of sail vs power etc. - still I maintain my original comments

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OK, thankyou.

To clarify. If I am under sail with a ship coming up the TSS on my stbd side, you would be happy that I alter course to stbd and pass behind? ie ignore the remote possibility that he is about to alter course to pass behind me?

In those circumstances, my instinct would have been slow or stop if far enough away for the consequences to be clear in good time, or turn 180 if not.

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I have no problem with your actions ... but we are talking about in a TSS ..... where actions of a larger vessel are often restricted ... so a yacht should be prudent and act accordingly - .....
 
Re: Incidentally... correction please ... I think you made a slip ..

"If you turn left, then (depending on how far you turn) the other vessel will either still see your green light or will see your stern light. In either case, she will remain the give way vessel under Rules 13 or 15. Yes, you may have moved off the collision course, and you will know that, but for the other vessel it will now take time for her to work out the changed situation. Even ARPA isn't instantaneous."

She remains STAND-ON vessel .... no matyter what changes etc. you male.
 
Re: Back to basics

2 miles from the bow of ship. If you were crossing the Dover Strait you may miss the last lock gate at Calais in this case!

I too give 10/10 for Ken for his argument - Colregs do not tell him not to turn to port, just to get out of the way.

Having said that I would still turn to std. - particularly when you consider what happens at night.
 
Re: I think I might be taking my life in my hands but.... #2

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What you should have learnt is that there is no single hard and fast answer.
If you have got into a close collision situation then a turn to Sbd follows most of the Regs and will avoid the collision.
Better not to have got into that situation by taking early action i.e. slowing down.

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To be honest , I think that's all I have learned , and although I don't expect an answer I've e mailed the coast guard to see if they have any advice , but basically I'm thinking the best way is not to get in this situation in the first place
 
Re: Back to basics

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2 miles from the bow of ship. If you were crossing the Dover Strait you may miss the last lock gate at Calais in this case!

I too give 10/10 for Ken for his argument - Colregs do not tell him not to turn to port, just to get out of the way.

Having said that I would still turn to std. - particularly when you consider what happens at night.

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I think the night time comment is the most revealing of all ....

TK says the ship will see you turn by seeing the green disapear and the white appear .... mmmmmmmmmmmm really. So the guy is going to watching ONLY you ... well he might actually if you turn to port !! /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Seriously ... night time ... White light can mean ? Small boat not req'd to carry other lights ... at anchor ... stern light .... mast light and others faulty ? The white light is dubious if the whole episode is not watched carefully. Can be mistaken.... and lost in amongst the rest.
But a red light is distinct and means one thing port side of a vessel / boat ... especially if the ship has seen a) green light and white MH ... become green + red + MH become red only + MH .... no mistake there ... a boat has turned to stbd.

Final comment about running same direction as ship ... (ie turning to port) ... I hate looking behind to assess risks etc. and also the stern chase is a long chase (an old Ship saying - meaning that adding two ships in overtaking is a long exercise ... cause effectively that is what you advocate - stringing the whole affair out ...). If I turn to stbd - HE knows what I've done clearly day and night ... I get past him very quickly and I also can assess any other risk ahead without straining looks aft etc. - In relatived motions opposing bodies will have faster effect in manouevres than bodies travelling same direction and manouevre can be less in fact when opposing direction.

I have to give you TK 10 out of 10 for bloody-mindedness, but we'll the technical score alone - I might offend !!

I am also passing this question to my "friends" at IMO ... see what they make of it !! Should be interesting ... get it from the horses mouth so to speak ...
 
Re: Incidentally... correction please ... I think you made a slip ..

You are dead right, of course. I was thinking of the transition from green to white and slipped up. If she can see your green light then she is stand-on vessel. However, if she sees your stern light (as would probably be the case) then she is an overtaking vessel, and has to give way. And then we hit one of the funnies about Colregs; under 13(d) an overtaking vessel is the give-way vessel until she is past and clear, irrespective of any subsequent alteration of the bearing. There is no similar proviso for crossing or head-on vessels.

So my slip (whilst totally wrong, slap on wrist or even somewhere more sensitive) doesn't have that much effect. If you are on a collision course with the other vessel and are on a course at right angles to hers, then she will see your green. To show that you have taken action you should change course sufficiently for your light to change, and if you alter to port that means showing your stern light.

Remember, under power at night you will carry the same lights as a small coaster. Turning to port could give you the appearance of a small coaster joining the flow at a shallow angle. Alright, in practice a big ship would probably recognise the difference, but that's not what the rules say. So you could, by turning to port, create some uncertainty in the minds of the ship's bridge crew. Turning to starboard, red to red, creates no such uncertainty.

It's interesting. Sailing on the East Coast and crossing to France, Begium or Holland I have to cross several TSSs on each trip. Even worse when heading up the continental coast and crossing the traffic into the Scheldt, the Rhine, the Ems, the Elbe and so on. I have never found any significant difficulty in doing so, even when there has been quite heavy traffic. I wonder if this is a problem which looms large in the minds of Solent sailors, just because they're not used to it?
 
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