I NEED EXPERT ADVICE on wooden sailing boat!

[udo]

Hello everybody,

I NEED EXPERT ADVICE on wooden sailing boat!

I am aware of the work which will be involved with wooden boats, but I have a concern:


I am considering buying:

a 24 ft Koster made in Sweden 1960

Hull is made of: Mahogany on oak (Carvel build)
The boat was kept in the same family for many, many years ( around 25 years)

Under the waterline the boat is having a plastic / (according to the owner) a thick epoxy coating and when I looked at it, feels like a thick flexible rubber coating. This was applied 15 years ago. The owner also told me that every year the upper edge along the waterline, needs to be checked, because the edge might loosen a little, just only a few mm. but needs to be re-glued with epoxy glue in order to avoid this going any further.

(Image 1, see link below to my gallery)

This means, the hull under the waterline is completely sealed and should not let any water coming through.

After scraping the hull above the waterline (the freeboards), the owner applied a varnish called Coelan (one of the most expensive on the market) which is a Polyurethane varnish. Of course the inside of the hull is not varnished at all so the hull is able to breath.

With this type of carvel build boat, it's not unusual that in the beginning of the sailing season (after the winter) some water will get through the freeboards when the wood is very dry. The owner told me that this is happening.

This is not my major concern!

Next point:

The cockpit is not self bailing. Any water from rain (fresh water) or (salt) water coming in whilst sailing flows via the drain holes in the cockpit floor boards over the inside of the hull to the lowest part of the hull just above the keel.

(Image 10 + 14) see link below to my gallery)

The boat is having (of course) a manual bilge pump and an electrical bilge pump, from which the last one will be automatically activated the moment water is detected above the keel on the inside of the boat.

I know, it's normal for wooden boats to have water in this place. The boat is in the baltic (Stockholm area) , so it is in (cold) salt water (but the baltic is not as salty as the Atlantic or North sea!)

My Major concern:

Since the boat is completely sealed on the outside and fresh water is able to get inside when it rains, unless I use a cover for the cockpit, I just wonder if this part is not going to give me in the future major worries. But have to say: after 15 years with the coating on the outside, nothing seems to be rot.

I checked all the wood on the inside. All seems to be OK, except a tiny piece of wood supporting the floor boards, which feels soft, but this part is above the water, when there is water inside the hull, above the keel.

At the very bottom above the keel (deepest point) below the cabin floor boards, where usually some water is, also the wood still feels very hard, but some of the red-lead paint is peeling off and bare wood from the hull is exposed, so this part of the hull will be easily soaked with a combination of slightly salt water from the baltic (coming in during sailing via cockpit and freeboards) and fresh rain water.

Is this really going to be a main concern? Or what do I need to do?
Have to get the boat back on the land, scrape all the paint on the inside of the bottom of the hull just above the keel away, let it dry for a whole winter season and paint it next spring with red-lead paint, or apply an epoxy?

Or could I use the boat this summer season for sailing and tackle the issue after?

Or not to buy the boat at all?

here are all the images:

http://dev.colourcertainty.co.uk/01Images/Sweden-Sailing-Boats/2010/Boat-Forums/


many thanks in advance for any advice!


Best regards,

Udo

 

[DownWest]

Udo,
Normally, sheathing the hull on old boats needs REALLY close inspection, as it is is often a quick fix for a few more years, but accelerates the rot.
That is a truly lovely boat. First thought is to buy it, then rip off the covering and repair any rotten planks. Might be a lot. Second thought is to run away and buy a boat that needs less major work. Can you get a professional surveyor to look at it ?
A

 

[udo]

It's a family boat for over 25 years. Loved so much that the owners even took it temporarily to the UK and than brought it later back on a truck!
Reason for sale: They have bigger (wooden) yachts and the children do not use it enough to justify keeping it.

The coating on the outside of the hull under the waterline was applied 15 years ago.
I could not find rot anywhere on the inside of the hull, also not deep at the bottom.

Taking away the outside underwater coating would not justify the purchase price of just EURO 4000.
Boat is coming with only 1 year old (new North) sails and lot's of navigation equipment.

So, it's a matter of do I take the risk or not. (Don't mind doing a bit of work during the winter month's)

Udo

 

[Lakesailor]

You obviously don't seem to want to take off the coating.

It doesn't really matter how much they loved it, all you should concern yourself with is the condition it is in now. At Euro 4000 it would be worth the extra effort to detect any underlying problem as you will still have a worthwhile boat, even if you have some work to do.
It is a lovely boat, and with the new sails and the gear must be worth the price, but if I was you and bought it I would certainly take it out in winter, after sailing it for the summer, and strip off that coating. I wouldn't think a few months of use would accelerate any problem unless it were very serious, in which case a bit of prodding now may reveal it.

 

[udo]

Hi Lakesailor,

here in Sweden, no choice, we have to take the boats out of the water every year, otherwise our boats will be crushed by meters of ice! This years at was close to a meter thick! with -30C! (86F?) and intend to scrape everything back to the wood and built up the coatings from scratch during the winter, but I am very hesitant to take of this very expensive coating under the waterline.

Woodwork all seems to be OK from as far as what I can see inside and out.

Guess, I have to take the gamble.

Udo

 

[ColdFusion]

Looks like a lovely boat for €4000 (asking). I'd say go for it.

 

[alan006]

I would suggest you touch up any areas inside where the red lead has worn thin.
The epoxy coating , as I am sure you know, does not cope well with expansion and contraction of the wood and so it is best to keep the wood sealed from moisture.
I know that there can be problems caused by excess moisture trapped in the timber, but you have to choose between two evils ( as I suppose the pure-ists will say). Best to seal it up now in the summer when hopefully the timber is fairly dry than let it get damper.
I don't suppose everyone will agree with this.

 

[Tranona]

If the sheathing is glass cloth and epoxy and there is no sign of it delaminating, I would leave as it is. From your photgraphs it looks like the framing and ribs are very substantial so the hull should be stable. If the sheathing has been on for 15 years there is no reason why it needs to come off.

Coelan is an excellent finish for the topsides as it is flexible, although it looks like the film has broken down in places, so might need some local repairs and re-coating.

For the inside of the hull, I would wait until the winter, dry it out completely, scrape off the flaking paint and recoat below the waterline with International Danboline. I would not be worried about small amounts of water getting in when you are sailing - just pump out regularly. However do not let rain water in. First priority is a full cockpit cover. Not only will this keep water out but will protect all the woodwork in the cockpit.

I have a 1960's boat with a sheathed hull (ply, not carvel) and open bilges. No rot, because inside has always been kept dry except for small amounts of bilge water. But complete inside is painted with Danboline or normal enamel above the water line.

With care there is no reason why this boat should not last a long time and seems a bargain at 4000 euros.

Of course all my comments are based on the phots and your description and it would be good to get an experienced surveyor or wooden boatbuilder to look at it.

 

[udo]

Thanks Alan and Tranona,


The family is reluctant to sell it (they had it for over 25 years) because the children do not use it enough.

Bargain? Indeed! It comes with:
1 year old (=new) North sails + Furlex roll genua and all possible navigation equipment from Simrad incl GPS. 9HP Yanmar Diesel, which looks very clean and works.

The only part I need to get is indeed to cockpit cover.

I opened all floor boards and found no rot in the hull, except a 1 cm part in a rib, right in the middle above the keel. It's not the bottom part which is sometimes in the water, but the upper part which is supporting a floor board and that's all.

Depends on the cost of a surveyor if I just have it checked by someone else or just take the risk.


got here some more images:

http://dev.colourcertainty.co.uk/01Images/Sweden-Sailing-Boats/2010/Koster-Forum-2/

Thanks for your feedback again,

Udo

 

[EastCoastChris]

That's a lovely boat.

I say go for it, but don't make any immediate changes. Bear in mind she's lasted this long without your help, if something doesn't need fixing then leave it be for a while

Chris

 

[nimbusgb]

Pretty boat!

 

[Captain Coochie]

My thinking is you would only cover a hull like that if there was a problem . There was a problem 15 years ago and they covered it up .

 

[Redwing228]

She' a beautiful boat and certainly looks in good condition. There is something very attractive about double-ended Scandinavian designs..

Udo, go for it and buy her and get some enjoyment out of her this summer before worrying too much about what you think needs doing.

If you are able to get her undercover during the Swedish winter then maintenance should be easy.

 

[udo]

Decided to stop worrying by getting a surveyor. A few hundred € is definitely worth to spend to take away any doubt.

Thanks for all commends,

Udo

 

[tonijon]

Another thing to check for is what type of mahogany she is built out of eg is it hondurus mahogany or african. African is an inferior type of mahogany which sets up a battery effect with the fasternings I once extracted a number of bronze fasterning from a buchanan which had fizzed away to a 3rd of their size.
With Hondurus there is very little.
So I would check as to when/if she has been refastened. Also it is well worth the money investing in a good wooden boat surveyer prefebly one who is also a shipwright.
Hope this helps cheers pip

 

[udo]

I did find out from the owner what the outside coating is all about:
a hard shell fibre glass epoxy coating. Curious what the surveyor (and designer) of the boat is going to say tomorrow morning.

 

[lesweeks]

I think she looks lovely! If you buy her I'll be very envious.
Hopefully the surveyor will be reassuring and that you'll still want to buy her.
Please keep us informed.

 

[udo]

I indeed hope, but the glass-fibre epoxy on the outside hull under the waterline is a worry

 

[Lakesailor]

Wait till you get the report. Like others, I worry why a relatively new boat had this coating. Epoxy doesn't move like wood does and the advice to stick it on at the edges each year is a very dubious concept.
Quiz your surveyor on this.
It still looks a bargain, but I would count on stripping the coating and making good. You may find it is sound and just needs touching up. But I rather think wooden boats hide their secrets until you dig about.

 

[udo]

Wait till you get the report. Like others, I worry why a relatively new boat had this coating. Epoxy doesn't move like wood does and the advice to stick it on at the edges each year is a very dubious concept.
Quiz your surveyor on this.
It still looks a bargain, but I would count on stripping the coating and making good. You may find it is sound and just needs touching up. But I rather think wooden boats hide their secrets until you dig about.

Yep, it's definitely a worry!