I am a simple soul

[bedouin]

Re: And so say all of us

FWIW I have done a firefighting course (but only one day) - I used to work in an industry in which it was compulsory, but I'm glad I know the basics. I would recommend it to anyone who sails regularly - it makes you painfully aware of just how inadequate those little fire extinguishers I carry are at putting out fires.

If an 11% pay offer is an insult - then please insult me some more. With inflation at 2% it seems like a good offer - I'd certainly jump at it if offered to me.

If you think it is dangerous - please post figures to support that view. How many firefighters died last year - and how does that compare with deep-sea fishermen or construction workers (If I remember correctly those are now the most dangerous jobs in the UK).

While I appreciate the job that firemen do - I don't see that they are a special case.

 

[ccscott49]

Re: And so say all of us

Firstly, it's 11% over two years, 4% the first. You equate how dangerous a job is by the number of people killed? That seems a little simplistic, how about injuries, how many of the deaths/injuries could have been avoided, in the building and fishing industries, by using the correct equipment and techniques, these two industries are well known for their cavalier attitude to safety. The fire service on the other hand, trains there men properly and extensively to do a potentially very dangerous job in the safest possible way, but does this make the job less dangferous, I think not. It would have to be a very close relative of mine to get me to go into a burning building in danger of collapse to rescue somebody. If you've experienced that on your fire course, you can understand me. Also how about oilfiled workers, we've lost, in the northsea alone this year, 12 people and also a bunch of injuries minor and major and we take safety very seriously! I agree about the fire fighting course, I do two days every year and have done for the past 20. I dont have baby extinguishers on my boat!

 

[claymore]

Baby extinguishers

Can you get them for 20-odd year old daughters?

regards
Claymore

 

[ccscott49]

Re: Baby extinguishers

Surely!

 

[Twister_Ken]

Re: Fork lift wages argument doesn\'t work

The point I was trying to make, albeit somewhat inelegantly, is that a job is not just about wages. It's about a lot more besides, comradeship, satisfaction, total employment package, promotion prospects.

Just on the question of pensions, for example, a base-level firefighter can retire after 30 years service at 2/3rds final salary (index linked). assuming in that time (s)he has progressed to a more senior rank, then at age 50 they could be taking a £20,000 pension, with 15 years of normal employment in some other position still to come. So 'lifetime earnings' don't look too bad.

Already, local authorities pay ret'd firefighters more in pensions, than they pay active f/fs in wages. If the increase goes through, then that gap will actually widen. No way can LAs afford this.

 

[sailbadthesinner]

Re: right wing wades in...

but if you lower the wage so much you end up with a fire service run like a 3rd rate service

take london hotels
most staff seem to be brain donors of some sort poorly paid for whom english is a second language. the service is rotten when you can be understood. because they seek to pay as low a wage as possible to people who will not complain.

last time i was in a hotel in holborn
took three attempts to get right room and key together

at which point fire alarm went off. the doofus in the corridoor clearing room breakfast trays said it was probably a fault and i should not bother checking it out. that sort of attitude gets people toastedl

if you want the fire service to consist of the 39th person prepared to put up with the wages good luck. I am all for a market economy. this is one in action. the workers if they dont like it will leave, ofcourse they will. but they have a negotiating ploy, and the market will find the rate. which will be cost of paying more against cost of replacing them all and retraining.

Come on brain.get this over and i can go back to killing you with beer

 

[claymore]

Re: Baby extinguishers

I'll take two - where do I pay?

regards
Claymore

 

[ccscott49]

Re: Fork lift wages argument doesn\'t work

Why can't the LA's get some of the money we're wasting/giving to the central government in bluidy taxes! I give up, argue amongst yourselves, I'm retiring!

 

[ccscott49]

Re: Baby extinguishers

Me! Got two daughters, or is she very pretty, You use them to beat off any boys you see her with, quite heavy, but easily handled!

 

[bedouin]

Re: And so say all of us

How else can you define how dangerous a job is except in terms of the quantifiable risk of death/injury? After all there is a huge gulf between perception of risk and real risk.

 

[tcm]

fireman, insulting + link

ccs, you said this morning "They may not be worth 40% but 11% over two years, is insulting." and i just cut and pasted it.

i note today's evening standard, and agree with every word.Nice Mr jenkins can't quite bring himself to sack them on the spot.
<A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.thisislondon.com/news/articles/2045836>http://www.thisislondon.com/news/articles/2045836</A>

 

[claymore]

Re: Fork lift wages argument doesn\'t work

Well
I have to say the way you've hung on in here, after the tetchy tetchy little start we had to our day, is simply a wonder and joy to behold. I thought the toys would have been out of the pram and all over the floor hours ago.
Bet you come back one more time though!!

regards
Claymore

 

[sailbadthesinner]

Re: fireman, insulting + link

'I admire the firemen's gall and enterprise. '

thats what this really is
they have a governement that they think they can get away with cajoling by strike into the rise they want ( prob 17%-25%)



Come on brain.get this over and i can go back to killing you with beer

 

[tcm]

The myth of pay rises

Oh totally agree.

But taken at face value, your argument is that if we don't pay more, they'll be worse firemen. Which isn't the case. They'll be the SAME firemen. Paying the same person more to do an non-target-driven job doesn't mean better service. It means higher cost. This shows the lie in the "investors in people" rubbish - the idea is that it's a training issue - the reality is that to get the job done better you sack the current incumbent and pay more for a better replacement. And, with 40 applicants ,i bet that one or two (at least) will be better AND cheaper, not possible with dafto labournomics where a "better" health service is invariably a more expensive one, but happens everywhere else from consumer electronix to (ooh!) boats and boatfixing.

But, either way, for better people, of course, need to sack the firemen and get better ones. And with that much competition, no payrise needed.

I doubt that, given the same sophisticated gear and water hoses and traffic on the way to the fire, a slightly dozy fireman is much worse than a really athletic one with a degree. And with 911, it's all the really brave ones who zoomed up the stiars and got killed, whereas all the crap ones were having a sickie and are still alive.

 

[sailbadthesinner]

Re: The myth of pay rises

Matt how many times have you watched 'Walll Street' the movie?

its lots isn't it ;-)

My worry is consitently rubbish pay will mean the good motivated people leave as they can get better jobs elsewhere and you end up with eejits
who turn up and think when you say'
my daughter is trapped in the bedroom'

they think you have said ( you need the accent ,anyone will do)

my dog has crapped in the bad room.

Come on brain.get this over and i can go back to killing you with beer

 

[Twister_Ken]

Firemen, leave? Give over

It's a great job.

At my local fire station you often see taxis out the back. When the f/fs come off shift they do a spot of taxi-driving. Mmmm, wonder if the tax man knows about that?

 

[sailbadthesinner]

Re: Firemen, leave? Give over

that will explain the way soime minicabs are driven
they forget they don't have blues and twos on


but would you really be MINICAB driver unless you had to?????


Come on brain.get this over and i can go back to killing you with beer

 

[tcm]

Ah. Manchester United Example

Sailbad and tcm (somehow) get jobs playing for Man United. Or soem other Prem league team beloved by Sailbad/tcm. Hoorah. Premier league. Sailbad and tcm love their jobs and practise hard.

Next thing of course, all the decent players leave.

Not a question of pay, in many cases, it's a question of value. The decent players leave cos they aren't valued, if the management think that sailbad and tcm warrant a place. It's the job of management, anywhere, to fire the tosspots as soon as possible, regardless of whether this leaves them with half a team. If they don't, they end up with the wrong half of the team very soon.

In my experience, nobody but nobody ever got fired from the public services for being crap at their job. Indeed, hardly anybody gets fired from anywhere from being crap. yet, in order to grow fab flowers, you would be very selective indeed, and repeatedly nip out the rubbish flowers.

Further on, and in similarly non-pc mode, this excellence and attention to detail is shown by post-war germans making rather fabulous cars.

 

[ccscott49]

Re: Ah. Manchester United Example

But pre-war Germans made fabulous cars aswell!

 

[ccscott49]

Re: fireman, insulting + link

Now I remember, it's been a long thread!