I am a simple soul

[Opinionated]

Re: And so say all of us

Why is an increase of 11% derisory?

Many jobs carry danger to life and limb, measurable by the statistics - according to those, a fireman has a less dangerous job than many others. That is not to say that I think their job is not VERY dangerous from time to time.

Your suggestion that if you are not a fireman, or have never been one, you can't have an opinion - is intellectually unsound, and does no justice to your normal postings and opinions. Anyone is entitled to an opinion on anything, any other position is censorious.



IMHO, of course.

 

[ccscott49]

Re: And so say all of us

I was but refering to the people who were saying the job wasn't dangerous, when I said do a firefighting course, I didn't say you had to be a fireman to have an opinion on the matter, I'm not a fireman, I also have a dangerous job, but to call them greedy ba....ds, is IMHO going a little too far. But you, of course, are fully entitled to your HO.

 

[sailbadthesinner]

simple
the fire service has locked the bloody keys away in Staffordshire.
There is not enough kit available to train all the soldiers to use the modern kit .
unfortunately the firemen are in a now winn situation.
people may die as a result of this action . fact.
but a fork lift driver can earn more than a fireman.
how wrong is that?


Come on brain.get this over and i can go back to killing you with beer

 

[jimi]

Re: And so say all of us

My suspicion is that opinion is formed by a few opinion makers, whether it be union leaders for the Firemen or the press for the public, and whatever Tony thinks for the Govt. My major problem is with the manner in which this dispute is being conducted by the firepeople's leaders. Its negotiation tactics appear to be based on emotional blackmail which I would be surprised if the majority of firepeople would subscribe to. Proper negotiation should be based on recognised differentials, supply and demand, skill levels, risk etc rather than just making it a one issue demand! IMHO of course

 

[claymore]

Re: And so say all of us

Now that was not the response I thought he'd have drawn!!
You have obviously mellowed since 7 a.m. tee hee...tee hee..

regards
Claymore

 

[ccscott49]

Re: And so say all of us

Not mellowed! Grrr Grrrr! /forums/images/icons/smile.gif But I don't want to get into an argument on who's job is dangerous and who's isn't, I just feel they deserve a better deal then 11% over two years. Lets face it if you want £20 for something you don't start negotiating at £20, do you?

 

[pugwash]

The 9/11 factor

Do you think the gallantry of the Manhattan firefighters has given our own fireman a false feeling of having more clout and charisma than ever before? And now it's going sour on them so they're feeling hurt?

 

[ccscott49]

Re: The 9/11 factor *DELETED*

Post deleted by ccscott49

 

[ccscott49]

Re: The 9/11 factor

Referee!! A little below the belt that one.

 

[claymore]

Doctor.. I\'m seeing double.nm

.

regards
Claymore

 

[sailbadthesinner]

Re: And so say all of us

i agree in part
but surely tho it must a demonstration of their frustration that a set of people who, by the nature of their job, could be considered to be part of societyt's more community minded people, feel they have to strike to get their point accross.

i cannot imagine for one minute any of them believe they will get 40% but you have to start negotiating somewhere. i just think they are testing public sympathy far more than they realise.

Come on brain.get this over and i can go back to killing you with beer

 

[Twister_Ken]

Fork lift wages argument doesn\'t work

How many hours fork lift truck driving does a fork lift truck driver do in a week?
How many hours fire fighting does a fire fighter do in a week?

At what age does a fork lift truck driver retire?
At what age does a fire fighter retire?

How likely is a fork lift truck driver to be made redundant?
How likely is a fire fighter to be made redundant?

What pension terms does a fork lift truck driver benefit from?
What pension terms does a fire fighter benefit from?

How much annual leave does a fork lift truck driver get?
How much annual leave does a fire fighter get?

 

[pugwash]

Re: The 9/11 factor

Tentative question not a dogmatic statement. The stature of firefighters has never been higher and knowledge of what they're up against has never been more complete and vivid. Are our own firemen trying to cash in on public respect? If they were, it's nothing shameful and I'm not sure I'd blame them, but it remains an interesting point.

 

[petery]

Seem to remember that George Bush's dad ( or was it Reagan) fired all the US air traffic controllers on strike and trained their replacements PDQ.

Understand that there are lots of applicants waiting for these 'part time' jobs as firemen - so lets do it here Tony.

 

[tcm]

right wing wades in...

Not sure how grateful you should be - the firemen had put you in that situation in the first place, no?

If there are 40 applicants per fireman's job, er this doesn't look like a case of needing to pay them loads. Already 30% of fire budget pays pensions, so it ain't too bad and they ain't leaving in droves. like nurses. People died in fires last night, but they die every night.

Options are

1. Sack them for gross misconduct. Hire new firemen. This time, there'll only be 39 applicants per job.

2. Let it bumble along, monitor the polls, hope that the public turns against them, bodge up some settlement at 10-15 % and call it a victory for common sense. Duh?

Under no circumstances, CCS, can i ever see a pay rise, or a cut or even sacking people as an "insult". Capitalist system means that you or anyone hires your labour at market rate. Market rate set and reset by cost of other options. With high-demand skill you bounce in for a payrise as often as possible. Our hardware engineers did this pre-y2k and some almost doubled their salaries. This year, nope, no pay rise, cos loads of engineers available. If they want more money they should apply for a higher skilled job such as er driving a tube train.

In USA, they say "we're hiring" and workers hire out their labour when needed. In this country, you get in a cab and pay the rates it says, or walk. When you've had enough you get out. The cab driver shouldn't burst into tears when you leave and stop paying, not protest that not having a tip is an "insult" or anything.

Local babyminder has hubbie whio is fireman. They have new car, bought a car for daughter, timeshare in tenerife. Doesn't seem too bad to me as it is.

Oh and before too many people praise the NY fire guys...loads have left, on pensions caluclated on the basis of the last year of service, which seeing as they worked 24 hours a day for months, was loads of loot. Sure, they were brave, but lots fewer people would have died in 911 without the firefighters getting involved at all, and they would still have several million quids worth of fire engines not busted under rubble.

Heartless, eh? But true.

in UK, this govt wants to run efficient and good value services without sacking people or cutting their salaries or anyone being a bit upset, and even want to make up some nice jobs for all their mates too. Can't be done.

A fair salary for someone who saves lives? Like "fair" taxes, there's no such thing. the only fair tax is 100% or 0%. So, it's fair that we give them all the money we have got. It's also fair that they do it for nothing. You can look a parity with other sorts of work, but these are usually highly selective comparisons, and it depends on where you want to be, higher or lower.

 

[sailbadthesinner]

Re: Fork lift wages argument doesn\'t work

how so?


Come on brain.get this over and i can go back to killing you with beer

 

[tcm]

market rates, not cost plus please

i see your point, but on that basis toilet cleaners should get far more than pop stars.

Prices/wages are set by what people can and will pay.

The guys who pay want to pay as little as possible (often, provided they get a good (enough) job done).

The guys getting paid want to get as much money as possible (often, provided that the situation is sustainable so they keep their position for a long time)

In raw situations like getting mugged, buying secondhand car, an auction, the comments in brackets don't apply.


Oh yes, a little levity re pop stars. Barry Cryer says that he plans to write a biography of Kylie Minogue and call it "Superstar? Jesus Christ!"

 

[ccscott49]

Re: Fork lift wages argument doesn\'t work

A fireman is on duty, not necessarily fighting fires, of course, but still there and still on call, maintaining etc. Lets compare like with like then are the firepeeps in UK paid more than counterparts in, say Holland? (mostly part timers in the country areas) France? No, Germany? Definitely No, please don't ask for the figures. I don't have them, just know its true.

 

[ccscott49]

Re: right wing wades in...

Sorry, But I don't remember saying I was insulted or the firepeeps were, but like most things, as you say, supply and demand, how many of those 40 peeps applying for the job actually pass the training? lots of wastage there. Anyway we can argue all this until blue/black in the face, they will never get 40% and they know that, but they will get more than 4% this year and I think they know that aswell.

 

[ecudc]

You guys should have a look at:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/talking_point/2439595.stm

Lots of interesting views from firemen, army, health service etc. I especially like the suggestion that fireman (as should all service people) working in London should have higher salarys because the cost of living is so much more.
Also don't forget that lots of firemen have wives earning money too, hense being able to afford holidays to bali, new cars etc etc.