Hydrovane and/Auto Pilot

[Minchsailor]

I'm not quite sure it is an either/or question. The Raymarine ram may be chunky bit of kit, but what of the bits around it to make it work?

I've sailed with a Monitor (previous boat) and an Hydrovane (present boat) and they are both good. Providing the boat is set-up correctly (and they are both quite sensitive to sail area and tiller trim - generally need to reef a bit earlier than would be expected hand steering) they will steer on all points of the wind.

My Hydrovane is mounted off-centre (Rustler 36, to clear the rudder) and it quite OK on both tacks.

Here's a video of us crossing the North Sea to Norway on the wind in a F5/6 with the Hydrovane doing all the work:
https://www.instagram.com/p/BVU0I4ogDEz/

The Hydrovane with an autopilot can be a back-up to the installed Raymarine kit for motoring - I use that combination all the time.

 

[jdc]

That’s very interesting, may I ask what boat that is on? ...

Rustler 42. For comparison, I have also sailed quite extensively with a Hydrovane on a Bowman 40, and on that it was much better. I think the more modern, wider, transom on the Rustler means that weather helm is more affected by angle of heel, not that the Rustler is in anyway extreme. Hyrovane themselves have also completely redesigned the rudder since mine was fitted, and I have been shown their rudder by a friend who also has a Rustler 42 (but they bought their Hydrovane much more recently) and it's much longer than mine. So I wouldn't say categorically 'don't use Hydrovane' - after all loads of people swear by rather than at theirs, but I would strongly advise you to take up with them some guarantee that they are supplyng the correct model, because after the sale it's too late.

 

[Daydream believer]

I'm not quite sure it is an either/or question. The Raymarine ram may be chunky bit of kit, but what of the bits around it to make it work?

I've sailed with a Monitor (previous boat) and an Hydrovane (present boat) and they are both good. Providing the boat is set-up correctly (and they are both quite sensitive to sail area and tiller trim - generally need to reef a bit earlier than would be expected hand steering) they will steer on all points of the wind.

My Hydrovane is mounted off-centre (Rustler 36, to clear the rudder) and it quite OK on both tacks.

Here's a video of us crossing the North Sea to Norway on the wind in a F5/6 with the Hydrovane doing all the work:
https://www.instagram.com/p/BVU0I4ogDEz/

The Hydrovane with an autopilot can be a back-up to the installed Raymarine kit for motoring - I use that combination all the time.

I watched the first part of that video & you are sailing upwind. Just about any windvane sails a boat on that course.
The real test of a vane is with a big sea coming over the stern quarter on a fin keeled boat, not a longer keeled boat, like I expect yours is

 

[Daydream believer]

I have read numerous posts on windvanes & studied designs for years.( even made my own once) I have spoken to many vane owners.
One thing that comes to light is that if there is a problem the manufacturers of Hydrovane are just about the most unhelpful & just blame the owner.
That applies even if they themselves have advised on all the details.
I certainly would never buy Hydrovane for that point alone.

There are other makes than can be mounted off centre (or so the suppliers claim)

If I had another I would go for a Monitor or Windpilot depending on the size of yacht

 

[dgadee]

I have read numerous posts on windvanes & studied designs for years.( even made my own once) I have spoken to many vane owners.
One thing that comes to light is that if there is a problem the manufacturers of Hydrovane are just about the most unhelpful & just blame the owner.
That applies even if they themselves have advised on all the details.
I certainly would never buy Hydrovane for that point alone.

There are other makes than can be mounted off centre (or so the suppliers claim)

Not sure what the problems might be. I have my hydrovane offset on a 37 footer with a fin keel and have no problem going downwind. Over the summer, for example, there was quite a bumpy following sea down the south Biscay coast of France with swell and wave, and the boat was fine. I think (as has already been said) the secret is reefing early.

 

[wully1]

Not sure what the problems might be. I have my hydrovane offset on a 37 footer with a fin keel and have no problem going downwind. Over the summer, for example, there was quite a bumpy following sea down the south Biscay coast of France with swell and wave, and the boat was fine. I think (as has already been said) the secret is reefing early.

Balance the boat and don’t power her up and the Hydrovane will cope better than most humans..

 

[geem]

Balance the boat and don’t power her up and the Hydrovane will cope better than most humans..

I get the impression reading these posts that the Hydrovane is more sensitive to boat balance than a servo pendulum design. This would make sense as it simple doesnt have the power of a servo pendulum or the rudder size of a main yacht rudder turned by a servo pendulum. I only have experience of a Windpilot and it doesnt appear to be too sensitive to sail trim or balance. Friends have a Hydrovane on an identical boat to ours and they say the Hydrovane is at its worst with a beam sea but great down wind. They say in a beam sea the waves can knock the boat off course and then the Hydrovane struggles to put it back on course but I dont think it is a major problem

 

[hisw]

Thanks for your comments, with a center cockpit boat, I’m fairly limited. Unless one comes up cheap, I think I might be sticking with just an autopilot and invest in some sprares.

I can always have warm beer and save power that way?!

 

[wully1]

Friends have a Hydrovane on an identical boat to ours and they say the Hydrovane is at its worst with a beam sea but great down wind. They say in a beam sea the waves can knock the boat off course and then the Hydrovane struggles to put it back on course but I dont think it is a major problem

That was also my experience, in beam reaching winds I had to really reef her down for the Hydrovane to work but as soon as the wind came forward or aft of the beam it steered brilliantly.

I suspect that was down to the boat as she required a lot work to steer a course in those conditions.

 

[dgadee]

Thanks for your comments, with a center cockpit boat, I’m fairly limited. Unless one comes up cheap, I think I might be sticking with just an autopilot and invest in some sprares.

I can always have warm beer and save power that way?!

Mine was 2nd hand. Lots of boats have them but aren't used. Find out your required shaft length and ask their owners if they are thinking of selling them. I discovered quite a few are but just don't get around to doing it.

I cut my shaft down (small engineering. firm) which just cost a few pounds.

 

[RupertW]

That was also my experience, in beam reaching winds I had to really reef her down for the Hydrovane to work but as soon as the wind came forward or aft of the beam it steered brilliantly.

I suspect that was down to the boat as she required a lot work to steer a course in those conditions.

On our fin keel and wide stern (wide for a 1980s hull design) and masthead rig we heavily reduce or drop the main if the wind is just forward of the beam or further aft above 20 knots unless we want to enjoy vigorous steering and even then find minimal balanced steering is faster. This also helps our autopilot use less juice.

Main on our boat is for very light winds and beating only. Beautifully balanced without it in even nasty waves and much stronger winds. I still find that strange but it's a way of sailing to the strengths of the boat not straining against its weaknesses.

 

[KellysEye]

>My boat came with a hydrovane. I've found it rubbish downwind too,

Problems with a Hydrovane are caused by not setting it properly, we sailed 2,700 miles downwind across the Atlantic and had no problems. There is also a problem upwind if you don't balance the sails to get a neutral helm.

 

[GHA]

Thanks for your comments, with a center cockpit boat, I’m fairly limited. Unless one comes up cheap, I think I might be sticking with just an autopilot and invest in some sprares.

I can always have warm beer and save power that way?!

With 400w solar & 500ah batts probably not a bad decision.

Out of interest, are you getting any other bits specifically for solo sailing?

I hate being out there without radar and ais alarms. A Raspberry pi has been great coastal and a Biscay, next to no power plus Opencpn watchdog plugin has a whole host of alarms for off course and the like. Yet to do a long passage with the Pi but very happy with it so far.

And one of these!

 

[Jonesey]

I did UK to NZ on a Beneteau 473 with electric autopilot (Raymarine) and a Hydrovane (mounted off centre).

Frankly we didn't invest time in getting to know the Hydrovane until our Atlantic crossing when our raymarine failed. Once you get to know the hydrovane (same with others I suspect) it's an invaluable piece of kit. It steered us across 4000nm in the Pacific continuously without complaint and I'd have one again tomorrow.

In my experience, sail balance and some rudder offset (when locking off your wheel/tiller) were the two main things to play with when setting the hydrovane. I didn't have any of the issues mentioned downwind, even in lighter airs.

 

[jdc]

>Problems with a Hydrovane are caused by not setting it properly, ...

This is the kind of thing which Hydrovane also say.

I've had one on two boats and they behaved differently: one worked really well and the other didn't. Contacting Hydrovane for advice about the one I can't really get to work I was first told that I didn't know how to sail (well, of course I'm still learning but I'd have thought 35,000 miles in the boat it doesn't work in, much of it transocean, some ocean racing, after 40 years of sailing, might mean I'm not a complete novice). Then when I persisted I was told that I'd been a silly boy and fitted the wrong model (it was only the one they supplied, so clearly my fault of course), then I was told, 'ah, yes, we did change the rudder design and some of them don't work a damn, but send an extra £1600 by return and you can have another go'. It's insulting frankly.

The thing is I can make it work, it's just that I can go at 8 knots without it and 5.5 knots with it working - what would you do?. But still I haven't dumped it and given up! I intend to make my own design of bigger, semi-balanced, rudder, in a decent material (not bl00#^ Delrin), and without losing 20% of movement to slop in the little-girl's bicycle seat arrangement currently used to attach the rudder to the shaft. I think it'll save the situation: in any case I'll report back.

 

[Daydream believer]

This is the kind of thing which Hydrovane also say.

I've had one on two boats and they behaved differently: one worked really well and the other didn't. Contacting Hydrovane for advice about the one I can't really get to work I was first told that I didn't know how to sail (well, of course I'm still learning but I'd have thought 35,000 miles in the boat it doesn't work in, much of it transocean, some ocean racing, after 40 years of sailing, might mean I'm not a complete novice). Then when I persisted I was told that I'd been a silly boy and fitted the wrong model (it was only the one they supplied, so clearly my fault of course), then I was told, 'ah, yes, we did change the rudder design and some of them don't work a damn, but send an extra £1600 by return and you can have another go'. It's insulting frankly.
.

Backs up comments I have received from other Hydrovane owners about the manufacturer

 

[dulls]

We looked at a hydrovane in about 2010. I did my research on the net and out of all the wind vanes this appears to be the one with the most problems. We knew a balanced sail plan would be crucial on it. We figured a tired crew in a long blow would not be interested in balancing the boat all the time. We picked up an Aries no 5 second hand and never looked back. More powerful and more forgiving. It is the power that a servo pendulum type provides that is important. When hydrovane upgraded the rudder it appeared to me that there were problems with it. Hydrovane may work well on some boats and not on others but a servo pendulum type should work on most boats. We think we will go with a wind pilot next time. I know the thread is old but accumulated knowledge on this does not go out of date.

 

[roaringgirl]

I've crossed oceans using electric autopilots and had them fail, I recently crossed Biscay using one and the batteries reached end of life early on in the voyage. We learned how to use the Hydrovane and carried on quite happily for the remaining days. I've suffered total rudder failure offshore and strongly recommend having a backup rudder solution (unless you've successfully tested trailing buckets or using a pole as a rudder, do not expect it to work!)
The problem with electric autopilots is that you're dependent not only on the electronics of the autopilot being resilient, but also the mechanical elements plus the rudder, energy storage distribution and generation systems and it's also sharing all these with other essential systems on the boat. Hydrovane solves a few problems for me in one go:
1) what if main rudder fails
2) what some part of electrical system fails
3) what if we can't generate enough power to keep up with autopilot plus other essential systems
4) what if autopilot fails
Some people have had difficulty with Hydrovane either because the rudder or windvane is the wrong spec, or because their boat is difficult to balance on some points of sail. We certainly had to play around with the sail-plan and the sensitivity of the Hydrovane to get it right and the settings are different for different points of sail, however it did then save us from days of hand-steering!

I would be reluctant to cross another ocean without a wind-vane.

 

[jamie N]

I made a DIY item that worked, but only once I'd the boat as balanced as it could be, then it worked OK. It really needed further refinement, but I ran out of time. Next season will see it finished!
This picture shows it quite well, and shows it at a really bad angle of rake which basically couldn't work. It was soon modded (bent) so that the rake was more, giving more leverage to the trim tab.

 

[pcatterall]

our group would like to investigate getting a used windvane for occasional longer sails. Our Neptunian has a racked back transom (about 12" at water level), are different types of windvane more easily fitted to this kind of stern and which of the fittings can be left on the transom.