WoodyP
Well-known member
I am aware that under stress I tend not to communicate well. This doesn't matter when sailing alone. I do not intend to take the Yachtmaster exam but recognise my shortcomings.
I am aware that under stress I tend not to communicate well. This doesn't matter when sailing alone. I do not intend to take the Yachtmaster exam but recognise my shortcomings.
I was agreeing until the last sentence. Surely they test seamanship, navigation, weather awareness, boat handling, forward planning, contingency planning, safety considerations, communications etc. I think being able to demonstrate you can competently do all of that single handed, (lets add prioritizing jobs), must surely be a higher level exam than someone able to do it while relying on competent crew. In fact go further, maybe another element they should add to the yachtmaster is testing if you can do the above after all of the previously relied on crew have been incapacitated with sickness. Can everyone who always sails with crew manage alone?For me all the Yachtmaster prep would have added much less value if I hadn’t been instructed on crew management too. I had sailed for 25 years at that point with family and as a couple but occasional non-sailing guests are no preparation for a crew who expect to be doing things, and doing them safely. I learnt loads and lots of that was tested. Without crew management as part of the exam I don’t think it’s Yachtmaster, it’s just a big boat dinghy certificate.
I agree that when sailing as a couple that’s how you should be but that is not the essence of Yachtmaster training.When I started to sail a crew of 5 was not unusual on a 30 foot cruising boat. Now, with more advanced handling systems it seems to be more usual to see a couple, with the female not always keen on getting involved. You have to think of sailing as being solo with a crew member who may get things right or may not - even if you tell them what you expect. And these boats are often 40 or more feet these days.
Edit: change that. I have seen competent wives and hopeless husbands, too.
I agree that when sailing as a couple that’s how you should be but that is not the essence of Yachtmaster training.
That's why I visited several countries s/h, when I first bought my old and heavy gaff cutter, and practiced all the standard evolutions so I could tallk them though, demo them, and watch the new crew smile and punch the sky with that sspeeial feeeling of achievement!I was agreeing until the last sentence. Surely they test seamanship, navigation, weather awareness, boat handling, forward planning, contingency planning, safety considerations, communications etc. I think being able to demonstrate you can competently do all of that single handed, (lets add prioritizing jobs), must surely be a higher level exam than someone able to do it while relying on competent crew. In fact go further, maybe another element they should add to the yachtmaster is testing if you can do the above after all of the previously relied on crew have been incapacitated with sickness. Can everyone who always sails with crew manage alone?
It appears that you have a particular view as to what sailing a yacht is all about and because the YM scheme doesn’t appear to match that view, then it must be wrong.And? Does that suggest the training and examination may be out of date? Irrelevant to a lot of today's sailors?
I don't know anything of the RYA but it looks like an entity which finds itself - for a number of reasons - unable to keep up with current needs and techniques. Hand calculate secondary ports anyone? It is not innovative enough to my eyes.
PPS The YM scheme doesn’t require people to sign up to Competent Crew courses to be fodder for YM candidates. It doesn’t even require you to go to an RYA sea school. You can ask to be examined on your own boat with your wife and a friend as crew.
With the greatest respect, from the outside it appears as though it's the RYA that has a particular view of what sailing a yacht is all about. I.e. that it's all about crew management.It appears that you have a particular view as to what sailing a yacht is all about and because the YM scheme doesn’t appear to match that view, then it must be wrong.
How do you examine the management of boat and crew with no crew?And can you be examined with no crew?
How do you examine the management of boat and crew with no crew?
Even people who sail singlehanded take friends sailing sometimes.
Also my experience is that many people who sail singlehanded might be excellent sailors but they’re piss poor skippers. In simple terms, people don’t enjoy sailing with them because they’re useless at communicating what they want to happen. They often then get grumpy with their crew for things not happening. (Perhaps they sometimes suggest their crew aren’t very good at listening?)
The YM qualification is a SKIPPERING qualification. It’s a given (or should be) that you can sail the boat when you present yourself to be examined.
Its an interesting point this. I can see the idea that "yachtmaster" should probably cover having to keep your head while shouting "No, that bit of rope!" at passengers who haven't a clue but insist on doing something. Managing their sick bucket. Fetching them out when they fall overboard etc. It is an extra challenge that nearly all of us have to put up with at some point. But having competent seaworthy crew doing your bidding doesn't seem like a big enough extra challenge to warrant making it obligatory. A bit of delegation isn't hard, in fact if they know what to do before you tell them presumably skippers could pass their yachtmaster more easily while relying on the crew. Should it even be allowed to pass a yachtmaster with so much help???And can you be examined with no crew?
Seems to me that the trick is too keep 'em like that - well fed and watered, lubricated when appropriate - and willing to come back. That's crew management. If you can bring 'em along so they go from competent crew to a decent No 2, so much the better.But having competent seaworthy crew doing your bidding
Its an interesting point this. I can see the idea that "yachtmaster" should probably cover having to keep your head while shouting "No, that bit of rope!" at passengers who haven't a clue but insist on doing something. Managing their sick bucket. Fetching them out when they fall overboard etc. It is an extra challenge that nearly all of us have to put up with at some point. But having competent seaworthy crew doing your bidding doesn't seem like a big enough extra challenge to warrant making it obligatory. A bit of delegation isn't hard, in fact if they know what to do before you tell them presumably skippers could pass their yachtmaster more easily while relying on the crew. Should it even be allowed to pass a yachtmaster with so much help???
You’ve not addressed the crux of the mater. Would Concerto fail the practical if his team talk was weak and he missed when trying to high five someone after a tack?Good job the scheme is voluntary or some posters may explode with indignation.
Perhaps some should look at the history of the Yachtmaster scheme and attempt to remove the RYA fiction from their heads.
And perhaps wonder why it's hugely successful, has been exported all over the world and is a stepping stone to a career in the marine business world.
The freedom to drip and moan about it is your right. As is the option of not bothering. But please don't be surprised by the answers from those with over 25 years involved with the scheme and its development and the coaching and examining of candidates don't agree with those that guess stuff.
For me, the original post is excellent and posted to help and encourage. Shame that some don't get that.,
Good job the scheme is voluntary or some posters may explode with indignation.
Perhaps some should look at the history of the Yachtmaster scheme and attempt to remove the RYA fiction from their heads.
And perhaps wonder why it's hugely successful, has been exported all over the world and is a stepping stone to a career in the marine business world.
The freedom to drip and moan about it is your right. As is the option of not bothering. But please don't be surprised by the answers from those with over 25 years involved with the scheme and its development and the coaching and examining of candidates don't agree with those that guess stuff.
For me, the original post is excellent and posted to help and encourage. Shame that some don't get that.,
If you spent the exam giving one word commands to crew who were familiar with your boat you’d struggle to pass your YM exam.Yes, get your mates who've been sailing for years as your crew and you can just stand back and give one word commands. A bit less demanding in terms of yacht management than going into a berth solo. Poor Concerto could sail around Britain and not - in RYA terms - be considered a Yachtmaster.
Are you therefore saying that Concerto isn't skippering his boat right now? I think the crux of the issue is that what you (and the RYA, and capn, rest of world etc.) think skippering is and what dgadee and I think skippering is might not be well aligned.Also my experience is that many people who sail singlehanded might be excellent sailors but they’re piss poor skippers.
And there we have it. If you don't sail the way that the RYA want you to (in a fully crewed boat) then, according to an RYA accredited YM instructor, you're a "piss poor skipper". Way to go there, abusing a whole cohort of competent sailors. Teamwork much?Also my experience is that many people who sail singlehanded might be excellent sailors but they’re piss poor skippers. In simple terms, people don’t enjoy sailing with them because they’re useless at communicating what they want to happen. They often then get grumpy with their crew for things not happening. (Perhaps they sometimes suggest their crew aren’t very good at listening?)
So YM is nothing to do with sailing or seamanship. All to do with crew management. Totally useless for us singlehanders.It’s a given (or should be) that you can sail the boat when you present yourself to be examined.