How Stormy A Sea Have You Been in?

[Gludy]

Re:How stormy a sea have you been in

"I have sat on an anchor in F10-11 and would have been quite happy motoring around in a 21 foot power boat in the particular sea state circumstances."

Ok - I am fascinated - please tell us when and where this was.

I have ridden out a few f11's in a well protected marina at Swansea and even that managed to damage many boats with hoods, ripped off, fenders flying everywhere etc. So I am fascinated where and when this was that you would be happy to take a 21 foot boat out in an f11.

I fully appreciate that the fetch, the wind direction and the current direction are all factors in determining sea state ... I agree it is sea state that really matters most but it does not take much fetch to get a decent wave up in an f11? Let alone wind doing between 64 and 71 mph - the slightest change in direction of that sort of wind would have a dramatic effect even without sea state being anything!

But I am being told that you would be happy to go out to sea in winds blowing 70mph in a 21 foot power boat!!!!!!!!

So I await with much interest to find out when and where the sea state was such, when the wind was f11 and you would have been happy to take a boat out to sea.

 

[jimi]

Re:How stormy a sea have you been in

Brendan, with due respect you're talking complete shite! I've been in Soton water in a F10 and whilst there was'nt breaking waves the top of the water was lifing off and blowing in thick spray for about 4 or 5 feet above the water surface. The pilot boat that passed me was chucking spray 30 foot in the air, a rib would probably have been flipped if the wind got under it and your wee boat would just have been blown away. ... and what if you'd had engine failure?

 

[Gludy]

Re:How stormy a sea have you been in

Jimi and that was a mere f10, we are now being told that some would be happy in f11 ....... or into an f10 around the Needles for practice. I think I live on antoehr planet.

 

[Ships_Cat]

Re:How stormy a sea have you been in

Without getting to the log on the boat (40 foot yacht), last occasion at anchor was in Ship Cove just in on South Island side of Cook Strait, New Zealand, can't remember if it was during NZ summer of 2003/2004 or 2002/2003 now {Edit: wife just told me was 2002/2003). Lasted a night and half a day, with wind around high 50's to low 60's during most of the night and around 50 knots for the next morning. When it got down to mid 40's we kept thinking how calm it had become. {Edit: Your post Paul refers to 70 knots for F11, F11 is actually 56-63 knots I believe.}.

While the sea had a fetch of approx 2.5 miles it was actually blown reasonably flat but lots of spray coming off it. Apart from the noise it was actually more comfortable in the boat than in a lesser but gusting and variable direction wind - the boat just sat rock steady hard on the anchor. A capable 21 foot power boat would have handled the local sea and wind conditions (I work quite a bit with power boats) - I see small commercial fishing boats around 25 - 30 foot working set lines in rip seas that are much, much larger, as well as being steep and disorganised, but have to say I would rather be in the yacht /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif.

Perhaps I should mention that we also get F10 (gusting up into the 60's plus) quite a number of times through the marina during the year. Just counting the weekends when we are normally on board probably around 4 or 5 times last year (so more times than that counting for when we weren't on board) - we live in the Roaring Forties. {Edit: there is sometimes damage to flydeck type power boat plastic canopies, for those who have not learnt that they should not be left up. Our marina also has a pile at the outer end of each berth, between each pair of boats so that you are sprung off the walkway with a line all four corners, so to speak, so no need for fenders which otherwise would end up thrashing around as I think you say}.

John

 

[Gludy]

Re:How stormy a sea have you been in

"Your post Paul refers to 70 knots for F11, F11 is actually 56-63 knots I believe."

I clearly stated mph not knots so my figures were correct.

So in that situation with 70 mph winds blowing you would think it is safe for a 21 foot boat to go out to sea ...... I really do think that would be irresponsible and it seems we simply have to accept that we disagree.

Even if in a small local area you get get calmer seas, any engine problems and with a wind like that you are really in trouble. I have a healthy respct for the sea and how quickly things can change and would never, ever venture out in any leisure boat in f10/f11. I actually think that most would agree with that so I have started a new poll

 

[Nautical]

Re:How stormy a sea have you been in

Brendan, amazing -

I had that very same dream once and when I got back to the marina having blatted twice round the Needles my 21' speed boat in a storm 10, crowds were lining the marina cheering me and this fabulous blonde was just about to invite me to her penthouse apartment.........

Then I woke up - bugger! I never get to finish the good ones.

 

[tcm]

Re:tcm\'s valiant trip in f8-f9

hah, well i had no probs for most of the trip, but i decided to turn back as soon as i drove the er car onto the beach and the car filled with sand. Never had to actually abandon a walk on a beach....

 

[Ships_Cat]

Re:How stormy a sea have you been in

I clearly stated mph not knots so my figures were correct.

That's ok then Paul, me just reading too fast in naughtykill terms rather than in cardriving terms.

I have not said that I would set out into such conditions unless in sheltered waters and I knew the seas would be flat(tish /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif), we would not do so even in our own boat. I have just stated that I would be happy in those conditions. Going outside the harbour here in storm conditions is too much for the big 500 foot rail ferries at times.

However, while I do not do any power boating whatsoever on our local harbour I would expect that power boats of around 20 foot size do periodically get caught in F10 - F11 winds on it and handle those ok (in general terms the harbour is approx 6-7 miles in diameter).

Obviously, I am not referring in any way to sea conditions around Solent/IOW as I am not familiar with them. I am also not familiar with Brendan's boat (but am familiar enuff with Brendan to know he's a nutty risk taker /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif). The point I am making is that it can be possible for a 21 foot boat to handle some (even some quite challenging) conditions in F10 - F11 wind strength.

John

 

[Gludy]

Re:How stormy a sea have you been in

The whole point is about going out to sea in an f10/f11 in a 21 foot power boat - we are not talking protected harbours .... so can I take it that you would agree with me?

If you do, do I take it that you would never venture past the Needles and into open sea in an f10 in a 21 foot poer boat no matter what the 21 foot power boat was like?

Yiu have a closing loophole to escape through at the last minute by answering these questions correctly ... so will the cat jump ship?

 

[Ships_Cat]

Re:How stormy a sea have you been in

Ooooo, lucky it is bedtime here so I can escape /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif.

No I don't agree with you but as I said I cannot comment specifically about the Needles.

I do know that quite severe conditions can be handled in a small boat and sea conditions can be surprisingly low in some places or take time to build, even in very strong winds.

As I said, I would not knowingly venture out in even those sea conditions with F10-11 winds unless I had to, and never if I knew the sea conditions to be heavy. But there again I am not into mountain climbing or skydiving either, nor even into bungee jumping, whereas others are (and are quite welcome to it in my opinion).

Just found a mouse hole to explore, then off to bed. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

John

 

[Gludy]

Re:How stormy a sea have you been in

I am saying I would not venture out in any sea conditons, in a 21 foot boat in 70 mph winds.
You are saying ... "No I don't agree with you"
Then you are saying you would not venture out.
Your position is now fudged ...... a smoke screen has gone up whilst you escape ..... do all cats do that?

 

[tome]

Re:How stormy a sea have you been in

Jimi's quite right - the visibility in F10 conditions is apalling, and the noise is as bad. I'm quite sure that on reading these posts many people are over-estimating the conditions they've experienced. A true F10 storm will cause considerable structural damage and I doubt that anyone would be venturing near the Needles in those conditions.

 

[BrendanS]

Re:How stormy a sea have you been in

Gludy, you seem to be determined to spin this into a 'he sets off knowingly into dangerous conditions'

I'm going to have one last attempt to explain the process, and then shut up, as it's just going around in circles now.

Scenario, haven't been out on the boat for a while, so when I have a free day or weekend, will pop down to boat, with intention of running up engines and doing some chores on it. Arrive at boat, do some chores, see that it's windy, but other wise it's quite a nice day, so lets take it down into the harbour and have a potter around.

Potter off down harbour, and all seems quite pleasant, and it's nice to be out on the boat again. Down near wave barrier, can see condtions still quite pleasant further on, so lets go carry on for a bit. So carry on towards the sea for a bit. At this point, it might look rather rough further out, and turn back, but if things are looking OK, will carry on a bit further.

Out by the starting platform now, again, might turn back, but again if conditions still pleasant, will carry on, and now hang a right towards the Needles. If things are heavy going, at this point will turn back, but if it's nice out and I'm enjoying it, I'll carry on. Repeat this process continually. Several times I'll probably turn around and head back the other way, just to make sure it's still a comfortable ride to get home.

So lets say I'm getting out towards Hurst point and can see conditions further out, will carry on if things comfortable, of if not turn back, it's here than sea state can change dramatically.

Things still OK, so head round to North Channel or Needles, depending on conditions. So, carry on towards Needle. If ocnditions past the Needle look nasty, won't bother carrying on . In the case of the F10, no I didn't go out past the Needles, actually turned around near Alum bay. It was very windy, there was quite a lot of driven spray, but being a North Westerly, there was little fetch, and the sea conditions were actually extremely good, and it was a sunny bright day, and nice to be out.

As I've said before, the sea state can be totally at odds with what you'd expect from the sea force.

What I don't do, which is what you are trying to imply, is just head off out to sea because it's windy.

So, lets just agree to disagree.

 

[tcm]

fair enough, but

um, with it being NW, then although there was a f10 in the area - i spose really that lymington in the lee of the new forest won't had the full teeth of it, really?

Unless of course you had a windex and had it screamming away at 55 (?)

 

[jimi]

How bad a forecast

I can recall setting sail in a F12 imminent forecast, however it was a really nice F5 just off Mull, where we were. So I suppose I can say I've sailed in a F12 (forecast).

 

[Nautical]

Re:How stormy a sea have you been in

I'll give it one more go,

In genuine storm ten conditions (not a forecasted one) the laws of physics dictate that for any given force (wind) against a given surface area (boat) in an unstable medium (water) there comes a point of no return.

A 21' sports boat in a storm 10 will be almost impossible to control at any speed above displacement and here I am discounting fetch or sea state just working purely against the forces of the wind. No matter how much power you apply or how skillfully you twidle your trottles or trims you are working against a force which is greater than that you can produce.

Remember we are talking about a force of wind that can up root trees, rip roofs off buildings, over turn trucks and smash caravans to a million bits (no bad thing), and yet with skill you can get your 21' whizzy boat out towards the Neddles!!!.

I have no doubt you set off with a forecast for storm ten but there is absolutely no way you actually encountered storm ten conditions.

If you think you did give me the date or even the month and year you did it in and I can look up the Met office history records and tell you exactly the highest recorded wind speed in the Solent that day/week/month. It might be embarrasing for you find out exactly what you were actually out in but maybe you would then appreciate what a real storm ten might be like -

Absolutely bloody terrifying!

 

[Gludy]

Re:How stormy a sea have you been in

Brendan I think we have to agree to disagree.

I think the wind forces of an f10 alone on a 21 foot boat would be a major problem regardless of the sea state. You appear to have made it to Hurst point in a f10 in a 21 foot boat - my bet is that it was not really a f10.

On my boat I have a wind speed and direction indicator that reads wind speed and direction and allows for the boat movement in both direction and speed so I get a true direction and wind strength - after all in a 25 knot wind a boat doing 25 knots could feel no wind at all or as much as a 50 knot wind, so without an indicator how would anyone know what wind was blowing unless they actually stopped the boat and measured it.

This last weekend I was out if a forecast f8 that was measured as an f3, so in that even I could claim I had been out in an f8.

I have no dispute with you about sea state being the dominant factor and that this depends on many factors - I agree. But it is not the only factor and raw wind strength is very important.

 

[Ships_Cat]

Re:How stormy a sea have you been in

I think you probably know Tom that I am not overestimating the conditions I experience. One point of disagreement, visibility in F10/F11 can be very good - depends entirely on the sea state, which may be horrendous or may be relatively flat depending on where one is and how long the wind has been blowing.

John

 

[Ships_Cat]

Re:How stormy a sea have you been in

I think it depends entirely what you are used to. Where I live strong winds are quite common and the things you describe such as trees falling over, roofs being blown away, very rarely happen. The trees are used to it and anything else has long gone if it couldn't stand the strain.

Regarding 21 foot boats being uncontrollable in such winds, again it may depend on what you are used to. Some 21 foot boats, and many much smaller can generate a F10/F11 or greater wind just by opening the throttles wide open.

We live on a surf beach here and the local coastguard (sort of like your RNLI) operates some outboard powered ribs, alot less than 21 foot. While the winds have probably only been around F7-8 I have seen them launch into very big breaking seas stretching 1/2 - 1 mile out from shore, frequently the boat airborne - and that was just when they were practicing. The right small boats with a competent crew can handle heavy conditions.

Again it is not something that I would willingly do as I am not into that sort of thing. Anyway, must rush, I have to go base jumping /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif.

John

 

[Gludy]

Re:How stormy a sea have you been in

"Regarding 21 foot boats being uncontrollable in such winds, again it may depend on what you are used to. Some 21 foot boats, and many much smaller can generate a F10/F11 or greater wind just by opening the throttles wide open."

Well lets say you have a boat that can do 70mph - same as f11, then I do not think it could do that in other that flat calm - nor can it do it with 70 mph behind it, beam onto it or even double the speed 140 mph against it- so, sorry your point about boats generating, in themselves these winds does not wash at all!! Its total theoretical nonsense.

"The right small boats with a competent crew can handle heavy conditions."
I am sure they can but they would be risking life and limb in a 70 mph blow, so the point that taking a 21 footer out in an f10-/f11 still stands.

No matter how the f10 brigade try to squirm out of this one ... the fact is that it is foolhardy to attempt to take a 21 footer out in a 70mph blow full stop. The fact is that it is bloody silly to even try and poke your head around the Needles in a f10 , if only to take a look - its irresponsible but I do not believe that it was a f10 and I would challenge anyone without the correct equipment fitted to tell me how they knew it was a f10 or f11. .. did they stop the boat and measure the wind speed?

The fact is that in thread after thread some folks seem to box themselves into tighter and tighter positions ending up an silly extreme scenarios . Or maybe you just like using up each of those nine lives?