lilianroyle
Well-Known Member
I'm thinking of the production of carbon monoxide. Is it safe to leave one on at night? CO is heavier than air so presumably leaving a hatch open isnt going to help that much.
how safe are parafin heaters
- Thread starter lilianroyle
- Start date
ChasB
Well-Known Member
One word: condensation.
alant
Well-Known Member
The usual products of combustion are H20 + CO2.
The first will have your cabin dripping.
The second can suffocate you & is also heavier than air.
CO can be a 'by-product', depending upon combustion conditions, but the CO2 will be the main problem, since you will probably be dead long before CO becomes a nuisance! /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif
Oh & by the way, whilst you are suffocating & blundering around the cabin, you will probably knock the heater over, possibly spill the fuel & have a potential fire hazard (however, may not be enough O2 left to support a fire. /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif
The first will have your cabin dripping.
The second can suffocate you & is also heavier than air.
CO can be a 'by-product', depending upon combustion conditions, but the CO2 will be the main problem, since you will probably be dead long before CO becomes a nuisance! /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif
Oh & by the way, whilst you are suffocating & blundering around the cabin, you will probably knock the heater over, possibly spill the fuel & have a potential fire hazard (however, may not be enough O2 left to support a fire. /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif
HenryB
Well-Known Member
If the heater is one with a "proper" flue to the outside then you won't suffer from H2O or CO2. I have a Taylors unit which has a flue but still wouldn't run it while everyone is asleep because of the fire risk.
Gordonmc
Well-Known Member
You won't get much sleep anyway because the pressurised paraffin heaters roar quite loudly. They use a primus type burner.
A better bet would be a drip heater (Taylors, Refleks) which can burn paraffin or diesel and have a bigger 3 inch flue which will evacuate all combusion gasses with correct ventillation. I don't reckon the standard 28mm flue is enough.
A better bet would be a drip heater (Taylors, Refleks) which can burn paraffin or diesel and have a bigger 3 inch flue which will evacuate all combusion gasses with correct ventillation. I don't reckon the standard 28mm flue is enough.
VicS
Well-Known Member
CO is actually lighter than air but only slightly.
The heater will cause a good circulation of air so the products of combustion will be well distributed but in the absence of good ventillation CO2 levels will build up while O2 levels fall and CO production will increase as that happens.
As said elsewhere condensation will be a major problem as well because as the volume of the water produced will be similar to the volume of paraffin burnt.
The only way to safely use a paraffin heater and to avoid the condesation is for it to have an external flue. Adequate vetillation will still be required to provide sufficient fresh air for the heater to continue to burn properly
The heater will cause a good circulation of air so the products of combustion will be well distributed but in the absence of good ventillation CO2 levels will build up while O2 levels fall and CO production will increase as that happens.
As said elsewhere condensation will be a major problem as well because as the volume of the water produced will be similar to the volume of paraffin burnt.
The only way to safely use a paraffin heater and to avoid the condesation is for it to have an external flue. Adequate vetillation will still be required to provide sufficient fresh air for the heater to continue to burn properly
Sinbad2222
Well-Known Member
We use a small greenhouse paraffin heater in our cabin with the hatch slid back a trifle and it works fine.
Being an elderley git I can remember us using paraffin room heaters at home all the time when I was a child as did most of the population in the 1950s and most of us are hale and hearty 50 years later!
Being an elderley git I can remember us using paraffin room heaters at home all the time when I was a child as did most of the population in the 1950s and most of us are hale and hearty 50 years later!
fisherman
Well-Known Member
The interesting thing is that when you burn paraffin you get something like twice the water in condensation for the paraffin burnt. I think LPG may be the same. Better get my head down until I can find the equation.
Malish
Well-Known Member
Pressurised paraffin heaters do not roar, they hiss. You are thinking of the roaring burner used in some cookers, heater are fitted with a much quiter burner that emits a soothing hiss. But I agree with others that they must have a flue and are not easily left on overnight unless you have someone who is happy to re-pressurise the tank every 3 hours or so.
ChasB
Well-Known Member
"you get something like twice the water in condensation for the paraffin burnt"
Something similar happens to me when I've had a few beers...
Something similar happens to me when I've had a few beers...
VicS
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Better get my head down until I can find the equation
[/ QUOTE ] Perhaps I can help.
Kerosene consists of alkanes (aka praffins) in the range C12H26 to C16H34. So taking C14H30, to illustrate the point, the equation for its combustion is:
2.C14H30 + 43.O2 ----> 28.CO2 + 30.H2O
So 2 moles of C14H30 gives you 30 moles of water
The RMM of C14H30 is 12x14 + 1x30 = 198
The RMM of water is 1x2 + 16x1 = 18
2x198 = 396 and 30x18 = 540 Therefore 396 grams of paraffin produces 540 grams of water. Now divide those figures by the densities of paraffin and water which are 0.8 and 1.0 g/cm³ respectively and you find that 495 cm³ paraffin produces 540 cm³ water, or 1 litre paraffin produces 1.09 litres of water.
That, I'm relieved to say, is pretty close to what I said earlier, namely that the volume of water produced is similar to the volume of paraffin burnt.
If you can find a more precise figure than 0.8g/cm³ for the density of paraffin I will leave you to calculate a more accurate figure for the volume of water produced per litre of paraffin.
I will also leave you to repeat the calculations for the lpgs butane (C4H10) and propane (C3H8). Please submit your answers, showing calculations, by 9 o'clock tomorrow morning! /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif
I hope thats all correct. If anybody finds any errors please write them a blank sheet of paper and burn it.
Better get my head down until I can find the equation
[/ QUOTE ] Perhaps I can help.
Kerosene consists of alkanes (aka praffins) in the range C12H26 to C16H34. So taking C14H30, to illustrate the point, the equation for its combustion is:
2.C14H30 + 43.O2 ----> 28.CO2 + 30.H2O
So 2 moles of C14H30 gives you 30 moles of water
The RMM of C14H30 is 12x14 + 1x30 = 198
The RMM of water is 1x2 + 16x1 = 18
2x198 = 396 and 30x18 = 540 Therefore 396 grams of paraffin produces 540 grams of water. Now divide those figures by the densities of paraffin and water which are 0.8 and 1.0 g/cm³ respectively and you find that 495 cm³ paraffin produces 540 cm³ water, or 1 litre paraffin produces 1.09 litres of water.
That, I'm relieved to say, is pretty close to what I said earlier, namely that the volume of water produced is similar to the volume of paraffin burnt.
If you can find a more precise figure than 0.8g/cm³ for the density of paraffin I will leave you to calculate a more accurate figure for the volume of water produced per litre of paraffin.
I will also leave you to repeat the calculations for the lpgs butane (C4H10) and propane (C3H8). Please submit your answers, showing calculations, by 9 o'clock tomorrow morning! /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif
I hope thats all correct. If anybody finds any errors please write them a blank sheet of paper and burn it.
Poignard
Well-Known Member
Or a charcoal heater?
BSSOffice
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
CO is heavier than air
[/ QUOTE ]
CO is around the same density as air and because it is a combustion product and warm, it is assumed that it rises initially.
You would probably want to avoid having any non-room sealed carbon burning appliances on overnight in the same space as you are sleeping in.
There some more background on CO in some adverts here.
CO is heavier than air
[/ QUOTE ]
CO is around the same density as air and because it is a combustion product and warm, it is assumed that it rises initially.
You would probably want to avoid having any non-room sealed carbon burning appliances on overnight in the same space as you are sleeping in.
There some more background on CO in some adverts here.
srp
Well-Known Member
I really don't know why I've done this - chemistry, and particularly chemistry equations and mols were something I just never understood at school and I've struggled with them ever since:
2.C4H10 + 13.O2 > 8.CO2 + 10.H2O
and then I get:
116 g butane > 180 g water.
And no, I'm not doing the one for propane as my brain now hurts really badly, and this ones probably wrong anyway.
2.C4H10 + 13.O2 > 8.CO2 + 10.H2O
and then I get:
116 g butane > 180 g water.
And no, I'm not doing the one for propane as my brain now hurts really badly, and this ones probably wrong anyway.
alan8376
Well-Known Member
Firstly. In answer to an earlier question. How about a gallon of condensation for every gallon of parafin burnt!
Secondly, on a more serious note! I presume the parafin burner is going to be used to keep some where dryish? If not, please beware if used in a 'sleeping environment.'
My experience of parafin heaters during my days in the forces when out on excercises in the deep cold German winters brings back many horror stories! Either there was a 'flare' which resulted in a fire. Or more seriously. people, when they are cold in a tent in winter or the back of a truck, blissfully go to sleep in the comfort of a lovely war space. Unfortunately, if the wick is turned up too much or it flares, the result is Carbon Monoxide poisoning or suffocation.
As a final note. Not sure if this is of interest to people on boats? Quite a few army guys were suffocated due to sleeping under tanks to get away from the cold weather. What can happen on soft ground is, the 40 Ton tanks slowly sinks during the night trapping those underneath with fatal consequences!
Secondly, on a more serious note! I presume the parafin burner is going to be used to keep some where dryish? If not, please beware if used in a 'sleeping environment.'
My experience of parafin heaters during my days in the forces when out on excercises in the deep cold German winters brings back many horror stories! Either there was a 'flare' which resulted in a fire. Or more seriously. people, when they are cold in a tent in winter or the back of a truck, blissfully go to sleep in the comfort of a lovely war space. Unfortunately, if the wick is turned up too much or it flares, the result is Carbon Monoxide poisoning or suffocation.
As a final note. Not sure if this is of interest to people on boats? Quite a few army guys were suffocated due to sleeping under tanks to get away from the cold weather. What can happen on soft ground is, the 40 Ton tanks slowly sinks during the night trapping those underneath with fatal consequences!
Vara
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
As a final note. Not sure if this is of interest to people on boats? Quite a few army guys were suffocated due to sleeping under tanks to get away from the cold weather. What can happen on soft ground is, the 40 Ton tanks slowly sinks during the night trapping those underneath with fatal consequences!
[/ QUOTE ]
I was first told this cautionary tale in 1973,and have not been able to find any evidence that it ever happened.I suspect that it might be one of those urban myth thingies.Glad to be proved wrong though.
As a final note. Not sure if this is of interest to people on boats? Quite a few army guys were suffocated due to sleeping under tanks to get away from the cold weather. What can happen on soft ground is, the 40 Ton tanks slowly sinks during the night trapping those underneath with fatal consequences!
[/ QUOTE ]
I was first told this cautionary tale in 1973,and have not been able to find any evidence that it ever happened.I suspect that it might be one of those urban myth thingies.Glad to be proved wrong though.
ChasB
Well-Known Member
I'm not taking any chances - I'll make certain to never sleep under my boat or tank again!
trouville
N/A
NEVER use a pressure heater!They are more dangerous than a petrol heater!!!When the pressure goes down the flame goes out but the vapour keeps going,one spark and BANG!!!
I heated with a pressure source and fell asleep i woke up in a cloud of vapour!The cabin stank of parrafin for weeks after. I use a taylors drip feed heater the only problem is that it was far to hot!!!For my current boat.
Ive taken a drip feed (cos i couldent find a reflex carb) and made a realy small diesel heater with a good chimney with this i can sleep walmly and safe all night.If the flames blown out the drip feed stops within a very short time.
Never use a heater without a chimney its dangerouse(but possiable if you dont have anything else)but its damp and smelly.with a chimny its walm fresh and dry!!
I heated with a pressure source and fell asleep i woke up in a cloud of vapour!The cabin stank of parrafin for weeks after. I use a taylors drip feed heater the only problem is that it was far to hot!!!For my current boat.
Ive taken a drip feed (cos i couldent find a reflex carb) and made a realy small diesel heater with a good chimney with this i can sleep walmly and safe all night.If the flames blown out the drip feed stops within a very short time.
Never use a heater without a chimney its dangerouse(but possiable if you dont have anything else)but its damp and smelly.with a chimny its walm fresh and dry!!
Poignard
Well-Known Member
I heard somewhere that drip feed heaters [e.g. Refleks and Dickinson?] won't work when the boat is heeled. Is that true, in your experience?
upthesolent
Well-Known Member
I wouldn`t trust one in such an enclosed environment. If they do not burn right you will know nothing about it in the morning!!
Many years ago, my electrics burnt out on my artic in the middle of France and in a very cold winter spell. Well below zero temperatures on this central plateaux. A fellow driver who was also a mechanic was diverted to me and we managed to get the motor running in able to get off the RN and park up for the night. He had an eberspracher heater in his cab and so lent me his small, internal use, parafin heater. I put the heater on and went to bed. It smelt, and despite being frozen to the bone, I knew I had to turn it off. If I didn`t I would have been front page news in the local paper!
Many years ago, my electrics burnt out on my artic in the middle of France and in a very cold winter spell. Well below zero temperatures on this central plateaux. A fellow driver who was also a mechanic was diverted to me and we managed to get the motor running in able to get off the RN and park up for the night. He had an eberspracher heater in his cab and so lent me his small, internal use, parafin heater. I put the heater on and went to bed. It smelt, and despite being frozen to the bone, I knew I had to turn it off. If I didn`t I would have been front page news in the local paper!
