How do I become a better sailor

[Ubergeekian]

OP asked how to get better, I have simply stated that, in my opinion, the fastest way to substancially improve a large section of your skills is to take up racing.

Completely agree.

I always advise people who are starting in yachts to get some dinghy sailing in, for similar-ish reasons: the result of doing things is generally more apparent and more quickly apparent than in a yacht. Until I got the Hunter 490 I used to hire a Wayfarer (I am far too old, grand, fat and dignified to attempt a Laser) at the local sailing centre for a day every summer, just to remind myself what a twitchy boat feels like.

 

[Bosun Higgs]

The one thing which essentially distinguishes racing from other sailing (or flying, or driving, or riding, or swimming, or ...) is going faster, and that will always be at a cost. Maybe a cost worth paying.

No . The one thing that distinguishes racing is competition. Unless you compete you dont know how well you perform. Without racing you dont know what you or the boat are really capable of because you are never trying and have no real yardstick for measurement.

The OP was asking how to learn further to be a good sailor. True that begs the question of what is a good sailor. Personally I wouldnt confuse "good " with "frugal" as in how long will my sails last nor with the "gourmet" as in good spot for lunch, mother in law cooking etc. To me a good sailor is one who safely gets the best out of boat and crew. And that doesnt mean sailing along cruising style with everything oversheeted in 10 knots of wind

And the OP wanted to know how to do better. How can you do better if you are not trying to do better. And how can you be trying if you are just pottering about?

 

[chrisedwards]

I don't know if my rig counts as "demanding", but with two masts, two gaff sails, two headsails and a bowsprit it's certainly more complex than your average Bavaria. A simpler rig would not let me sail more often - only a dramatic change to my work hours could do that. I can and do pop down on a summer weekday evening and sail my "complex" rig on the river and on Southampton Water. I will admit I've never sailed onto my marina berth, but I've sailed up the river to within spitting distance of it, and my record on the way out is 20 seconds of engine use to haul out of the berth before hoisting the peak and killing the donk. I generally do this kind of thing singlehanded as I find it less stressful without having to coordinate other people.

I don't claim to be "a better sailor", just that saying you can't manoeuvre a gaff rig shorthanded and in a small space is incorrect.

Pete

Please read my post - where does it say as you state "...you cant manoeuvre a gaff rig in a small space is incorrect" - where did you get this from? Now it does infer that all things being equal it is easier to manoeuvre a boat with a simpler/easier to handle rig. It say this stands to reason - ie it is obvious. You can then sail more often - my mistake - not clear - I meant for longer not more frequently - Therefore you will get more experience of close quarters manoeuvering if you wish and thus gain more experience relevant to becoming a better sailor.
By "more often" - I merely meant you can sail for longer and use your engine less.

 

[Ubergeekian]

No . The one thing that distinguishes racing is competition. Unless you compete you dont know how well you perform.

The danger of that approach is that you end up only trying to improve those things you can measure, and in racing anything that's speed.

How do you "compete" on crew comfort? How do you "compete" on anchoring? How do you "compete" on passage planning? How do you "compete" on overall pleasure?

Are you personally any good at coming alongside pontoons? If you've never done a coming-alongside-pontoons competition, how can you tell?

 

[KellysEye]

>The danger of that approach is that you end up only trying to improve those things you can measure, and in racing anything that's speed.
How do you "compete" on crew comfort? How do you "compete" on anchoring? How do you "compete" on passage planning? How do you "compete" on overall pleasure?
Are you personally any good at coming alongside pontoons? If you've never done a coming-alongside-pontoons competition, how can you tell?


Absolutely spot on, well said.

 

[Lucky Duck]

The danger of that approach is that you end up only trying to improve those things you can measure, and in racing anything that's speed.

How do you "compete" on crew comfort? How do you "compete" on anchoring? How do you "compete" on passage planning? How do you "compete" on overall pleasure?

Are you personally any good at coming alongside pontoons? If you've never done a coming-alongside-pontoons competition, how can you tell?

I would suggest that most types of racing give a greater appreciation of the tides, etc. which would have a positive impact on passage planning and making. Certainly I can think of times when I have got back in daylight while my companions have arrived afterwards due to be more willing to dodge out of the tide.

Regarding berthing, I judge my sucess by not damaging mine or neighbouring boats or requiring "heroics" from the crew

 

[Lakesailor]

Seems a bit unfair to me Lakey.Nobody at least not I was criticizing his sailing ability (like you said he mentioned dinghy sailing & that's about as good as it gets as a method to learn to sail in my opinion) but what it is about is seamanship & learning in a smaller boat would make it more manageable for him & bring him in closer touch with nature.
Tides & currents may not be a big part of lake sailing but I can assure you that they have a hell of a lot of influence sailing around our coasts.It is handling your boat in these circumstances that is important.(& that's where the real pride & confidence comes from).
Hope this helps

Not really. What I said was entirely fair as some forumites had suggested that sailing a dinghy would teach him about sail handling, wind etc.
If you didn't then it didn't apply to you.
Yes tides and currents are pretty difficult in the Humber, where I learned to sail.

 

[tudorsailor]

An example of what I want to learn

This has proved to be a fascinating thread.

I thought I might be more specific and give another example of the seamanship skill that would be difficult to acquire by simply sailing more or by sailing a small boat. I would point out that PYD were delivering the boat not due to my being timid, but due to my lack of time to sail all the way from Mallorca to Southampton. I took the opportunity to join the crew in Bayona, and I completed Falmouth to Southampton with SWMBO.

When sailing across Biscay with the PYD skipper and crew we sailed dead downwind with true wind of at least 20knots. The skipper set up the preventer. I have done this so in itself not something new. What was new to me was the way he brought the line back to a winch so that he could winch in the preventer line to pull it really tight against the mainsheet. He then went to the mast to sight down the boom to ensure the preventer was not so tight that it was bending the boom. In truth I previously just brought the preventer back to a cleat and pulled it tight.

The post-script to this is that we had an accidental gybe at night while on autopilot set to the wind and not to the course. The preventer did not prevent the boom crossing due to the stretch in the preventer line. (The preventer comprised a sheet from the cruising chute attached to a dedicated line from the end of the boom. Both made of 16 plait braid) This suggests that maybe one should use dyneema or spectra for a preventer - maybe the topic for another thread. The other learning point was the quick reaction of the 1st mate on watch to turn off the autopilot to stop the autopilot gybing the boat back again - which would have been without a preventer.

Thanks to everyone

TudorSailor

 

[prv]

Please read my post - where does it say as you state "...you cant manoeuvre a gaff rig in a small space is incorrect" - where did you get this from? Now it does infer that all things being equal it is easier to manoeuvre a boat with a simpler/easier to handle rig. It say this stands to reason - ie it is obvious. You can then sail more often - my mistake - not clear - I meant for longer not more frequently - Therefore you will get more experience of close quarters manoeuvering if you wish and thus gain more experience relevant to becoming a better sailor.

I maintain that I can sail my boat just as often - in just as many situations - as anyone else, despite her apparently more complex rig. Some of that complexity actually adds flexibility.

I've also definitely learned from a season of sailing a long-keeled gaffer. For instance, the leverage of having sail area six feet in front of the bow, and four feet aft of the stern, has taught me more about fore-and-aft sail balance than 20 years of sailing bermudan dinghies and yachts.

Nevertheless, I think I probably did read things into your post that weren't there, and I certainly didn't mean to antagonise.

Cheers,

Pete

 

[chrisedwards]

I maintain that I can sail my boat just as often - in just as many situations - as anyone else, despite her apparently more complex rig. Some of that complexity actually adds flexibility.

I've also definitely learned from a season of sailing a long-keeled gaffer. For instance, the leverage of having sail area six feet in front of the bow, and four feet aft of the stern, has taught me more about fore-and-aft sail balance than 20 years of sailing bermudan dinghies and yachts.

Nevertheless, I think I probably did read things into your post that weren't there, and I certainly didn't mean to antagonise.

Cheers,

Pete

No antagonism felt at all - I appreciate your comments and agree that there is a degree of flexibility. Nothing is as aesthetically pleasing as a well handled gaffer. I envy your level of skill - I have never been able to manoeuver a long keeled gaffer to anywhere near the same extent as equivalent hulls with a simpler/easier to handle rigs.

 

[Herald]

If you want to improve boat handling skills and get back to basics, can highly recommend taking one of the Hunters Yard boat on the Broads for a week. Gaff rigged and no engine and then try tacking a 30 foot yacht up a 15 foot wide channel. Great experience and gives you a superb appreciation of boat handling in a more sheltered environment.

 

[chrisedwards]

If you want to improve boat handling skills and get back to basics, can highly recommend taking one of the Hunters Yard boat on the Broads for a week. Gaff rigged and no engine and then try tacking a 30 foot yacht up a 15 foot wide channel. Great experience and gives you a superb appreciation of boat handling in a more sheltered environment.

Gaffers love them and plenty of experience but, as elaborated in previous post, not the skills - can't do the above either!

 

[prv]

I envy your level of skill - I have never been able to manoeuver a long keeled gaffer to anywhere near the same extent as equivalent hulls with a simpler/easier to handle rigs.

Ah, well, I'm cheating a bit in that mine is only 24 feet long on deck

She's still a pig in reverse under power though.

Pete

 

[Elessar]

Well of course. I wasn't aware that was in doubt?

OP asked how to get better, I have simply stated that, in my opinion, the fastest way to substancially improve a large section of your skills is to take up racing.

I used to race in the Bristol channel. Skipper was an ex Enterprise champion, and his race tactics were excellent. We often won or got a place, (but it is probably fair to say the racing was less competitive than the solent fleets).

But as a sailor he was pretty hopeless! He could miss a mark by inches yet couldn't put a boat into a marina for toffee (the crew had to do that). Navigate? You've got to be kidding. Improvise a repair on the move - no chance! manage a crew? Well he could shout at willing, motivated monkeys but that's all.

A good sailor is far more than many a racer. But racing gets you out there, with a purpose, so you gain that experience which is what it's all about.

 

[monkfish24]

OP asked how to get better, I have simply stated that, in my opinion, the fastest way to substancially improve a large section of your skills is to take up racing.

I think Flaming is quite right.

I started racing yachts when I was 14, my natural progression from having sailed dinghys and raced them since i was 10. My boat handling under sail, is at a good level and I can tell you now, I have every confidence in my own skills when it comes to getting the best out of my boat. I wouldn't have learnt this if it wasn't for racing, as it's intensive.

I can manouvere the boat under power just as easily as under sail and nine times out of ten i'll not run the engine when sailing as I just don't need to!

If you don't enjoy the look of racing then fine, but, it DOES make you a better sailor.....

There, I said it, now I'll scuttle off to where I came from

 

[Ubergeekian]

I can manouvere the boat under power just as easily as under sail and nine times out of ten i'll not run the engine when sailing as I just don't need to!

Why would anyone run the engine while sailing?

 

[Lakesailor]

 

[monkfish24]

Why would anyone run the engine while sailing?

I see people leaving their moorings under motor all the time just to move 300 yds to put the sails up.

 

[Ariadne]

Going back to the original post.

1. Don't spend your time reading conflicting advice from self appointed experts on internet message boards.
2. Get off your arse and sail.
3. Don't it all too seriously.
4. See 2 above
5. We all make mistakes and your always learning something new - nobody knows it all even if they say they do!
6. See 3 above.

Getting the drift? Get out and sail and enjoy it.

As quoted by somebody else on here once Biscay is only a bay! The Atlantic is just a bit bigger and takes about four times longer to cross.

 

[chrisedwards]

Going back to the original post.

1. Don't spend your time reading conflicting advice from self appointed experts on internet message boards.
2. Get off your arse and sail.
3. Don't it all too seriously.
4. See 2 above
5. We all make mistakes and your always learning something new - nobody knows it all even if they say they do!
6. See 3 above.

Getting the drift? Get out and sail and enjoy it.

As quoted by somebody else on here once Biscay is only a bay! The Atlantic is just a bit bigger and takes about four times longer to cross.

sorry - never got past your point one