Ubergeekian
Well-Known Member
Serious question: why the ARC? Why not just do it under your own steam. Wouldn't that bring a greater sense of achievement?
How do I become a better sailor
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Serious question: why the ARC? Why not just do it under your own steam. Wouldn't that bring a greater sense of achievement?
Woodlouse
Well-Known Member
I reckon most don't do the ARC to help them cross the atlantic. They do it for the parties and the whole community spirit of the thing. The fact you have to sail across an ocean to get to the after party is just a bonus.
Resolution
Well-Known Member
A really good thread that has exposed some fundamental attitudes.
My contributions:
1. A truly great thing about sailing is that we all add experiences every year.
2. But competence and experience are different qualities. I have been an experienced semi-competent for some years now.
3. Disregard the suggestions of trading down to a basic small yacht. The same forces of wind and water apply to bigger yachts, it's just that the consequences of hitting something are bigger!
4. Bigger yachts have more systems to understand and operate, so more to learn and more satisfaction when you master the skills.
There are many skilled forumites who share their knowledge regularly on the forum. Some of them might be prepared to join in on the water. How about an open weekend in the Solent specifically aimed at helping less experienced guys to try out some local sailing in a range of different yachts?
My contributions:
1. A truly great thing about sailing is that we all add experiences every year.
2. But competence and experience are different qualities. I have been an experienced semi-competent for some years now.
3. Disregard the suggestions of trading down to a basic small yacht. The same forces of wind and water apply to bigger yachts, it's just that the consequences of hitting something are bigger!
4. Bigger yachts have more systems to understand and operate, so more to learn and more satisfaction when you master the skills.
There are many skilled forumites who share their knowledge regularly on the forum. Some of them might be prepared to join in on the water. How about an open weekend in the Solent specifically aimed at helping less experienced guys to try out some local sailing in a range of different yachts?
Tiddy Oggy
Active Member
Lack of confidence
TS, it strikes me that what you lack is confidence. Part of the trouble here is that although most sailing is a solo experience, a boat as big as yours calls for extra crew, and if they are not experienced either, you have to think for your crew as well as yourself. That extra burden of having to tell other people what to do, step by step, explaining in terms that they can understand, under less than ideal conditions, is a formidable task even for an experienced skipper.
It seems that you have done your homework well, and I doubt you will learn much more from experienced skippers because in those situations you are acting as crew. There is a vast difference between crewing and skippering. You have to gain experience for yourself by skippering, by taking the decisions, in all states of weather, but particularly in heavy weather. With that experience comes confidence.
There are several directions in which you might like to explore:
* Sailing a smaller boat. Singlehanding a light-displacement 20- to 25-footer in all weathers will help enormously to build confidence. Learn the principles by noting how they work on your boat. How does the keel work? The rudder? What happens to helm balance if you drop the main, or the jib? Sail up to mooring buoys and jetties. Pick up life jackets you throw overboard. Try sailing backward. Above all, learn to heave-to in heavy weather. It’s a lifesaver.
* Read books on how to handle your type of boat (particularly the underwater configuration) in storms at sea. Books by such sailors as Chichester, (Gypsy Moth Circles the World), Moitessier; Knox-Johnson and so on all describe how they handled storms, whether by heaving-to, lying a-hull or running off. Find out how a hull like yours does best.
* Never leave port without doing the automatic things. By that, I mean the things you shouldn't have to think about – just as you don’t need to think about scrubbing before an operation. Check for lines overboard before you start the engine. Check the dinghy painter. Make sure the mainsail cover is off and both sails are secured but ready to hoist immediately. Make sure you have at least one anchor ready to run immediately. Wear lifejackets if that’s your style. There are many things an experienced skipper checks mentally without even knowing about it, but make a cockpit checklist if necessary.
* Anticipate. Anticipate all the time. What if the engine fails now? Is the stern anchor ready to run? Could I sail out of here? Main only, jib only, or do I need both? Could I call “Any yacht in Blankety Harbour” on Channel 16 to get instructions for entry? Is that black cloud coming my way, and should I strike the sails or put in a double reef? Anticipation, constant anticipation, is more than half the game.
* Finally, subscribe to John Vigor’s Black Box theory. He is an Englishman who is quite well known in America, where he lives, and his theory is that you earn points for all the small seamanlike actions you perform. They go into an imaginary black box that is aboard every boat. If you check the anchor line for chafe at 3 a.m. on a nasty night when you’d prefer to remain tucked up in your cosy berth, you earn a point. If you go up the mast to check the rigging, you earn a point. If you service the engine regularly, you earn a point. If you whip the ends of your lines properly you earn a point. You can earn points in literally hundreds of ways, but particularly when the action to earn them is difficult or inconvenient.
Now, when you get caught in a storm, or when you spring a leak, or find yourself nearing rocks, in fact whenever the chips are down and you cannot physically do anything more to help your boat, you draw on the points in your black box. They withdraw themselves, actually. You will survive when other boats come to grief. Some people, a lot of people, call this good luck. It’s not, it’s anticipation and preparation and it has been earned.
Good luck in your quest.
TS, it strikes me that what you lack is confidence. Part of the trouble here is that although most sailing is a solo experience, a boat as big as yours calls for extra crew, and if they are not experienced either, you have to think for your crew as well as yourself. That extra burden of having to tell other people what to do, step by step, explaining in terms that they can understand, under less than ideal conditions, is a formidable task even for an experienced skipper.
It seems that you have done your homework well, and I doubt you will learn much more from experienced skippers because in those situations you are acting as crew. There is a vast difference between crewing and skippering. You have to gain experience for yourself by skippering, by taking the decisions, in all states of weather, but particularly in heavy weather. With that experience comes confidence.
There are several directions in which you might like to explore:
* Sailing a smaller boat. Singlehanding a light-displacement 20- to 25-footer in all weathers will help enormously to build confidence. Learn the principles by noting how they work on your boat. How does the keel work? The rudder? What happens to helm balance if you drop the main, or the jib? Sail up to mooring buoys and jetties. Pick up life jackets you throw overboard. Try sailing backward. Above all, learn to heave-to in heavy weather. It’s a lifesaver.
* Read books on how to handle your type of boat (particularly the underwater configuration) in storms at sea. Books by such sailors as Chichester, (Gypsy Moth Circles the World), Moitessier; Knox-Johnson and so on all describe how they handled storms, whether by heaving-to, lying a-hull or running off. Find out how a hull like yours does best.
* Never leave port without doing the automatic things. By that, I mean the things you shouldn't have to think about – just as you don’t need to think about scrubbing before an operation. Check for lines overboard before you start the engine. Check the dinghy painter. Make sure the mainsail cover is off and both sails are secured but ready to hoist immediately. Make sure you have at least one anchor ready to run immediately. Wear lifejackets if that’s your style. There are many things an experienced skipper checks mentally without even knowing about it, but make a cockpit checklist if necessary.
* Anticipate. Anticipate all the time. What if the engine fails now? Is the stern anchor ready to run? Could I sail out of here? Main only, jib only, or do I need both? Could I call “Any yacht in Blankety Harbour” on Channel 16 to get instructions for entry? Is that black cloud coming my way, and should I strike the sails or put in a double reef? Anticipation, constant anticipation, is more than half the game.
* Finally, subscribe to John Vigor’s Black Box theory. He is an Englishman who is quite well known in America, where he lives, and his theory is that you earn points for all the small seamanlike actions you perform. They go into an imaginary black box that is aboard every boat. If you check the anchor line for chafe at 3 a.m. on a nasty night when you’d prefer to remain tucked up in your cosy berth, you earn a point. If you go up the mast to check the rigging, you earn a point. If you service the engine regularly, you earn a point. If you whip the ends of your lines properly you earn a point. You can earn points in literally hundreds of ways, but particularly when the action to earn them is difficult or inconvenient.
Now, when you get caught in a storm, or when you spring a leak, or find yourself nearing rocks, in fact whenever the chips are down and you cannot physically do anything more to help your boat, you draw on the points in your black box. They withdraw themselves, actually. You will survive when other boats come to grief. Some people, a lot of people, call this good luck. It’s not, it’s anticipation and preparation and it has been earned.
Good luck in your quest.
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Ubergeekian
Well-Known Member
I've been fortunate enough to have my own boat since just after I graduated. That's been absolutely great for the freedom it's given me and for the opportunities to have fun, but at the same time it's slightly odd in the way I think you're finding - I've hardly ever sailed in anyone else's boat, though I have been out with experienced people in my own.
This means that I know the Jouster (no reasonable offer refused) inside out, and I've started getting to know Jumblie well, but it also means some big gaps ... until Jumblie I had hardly ever used an inboard engine, I'd never sailed a long keeler and I'd rarely been into marinas. Yes, it was all a bit embarrassing, but when the engine died (siezed alternator) as I went out of Largs Marina backwards an hour after taking delivery of her, I did have the sails ready to hoist and we were on our way with a delay of less than a minute.
But I digress. I spent ten years as an active glider pilot too, and I found it had two major effects on my sailing. First of all, I started appreciating the wind as a three dimensional phenomenon much more - an understanding of wind shear, curl-over, rotor, orographic lift, lee waves, catabatic winds and so on makes (or made for me) a lot more sense of sailing in sea lochs.
Second, it made me much more punctilious about safety matters. The DI (daily inspection) is such a natural and fundamental part of glider flying and ownership that I found it became automatic to check stuff on the boat, spotting potential problems long before they became actual ones. That, for example, is how and why I spotted that some sod had nicked the ring from a shroud clevis pin on the Jouster (n.r.o.r.) earlier this year.
For me the most effective way to improve at anything is effective reflection on past performance. If it takes me two goes to pick up the mooring under sail in Jumblie I don't beat myself up over it but I do give it some thought afterwards to work out what might have been better. Same with any other aspect of sailing - or flying, or anything else. Being aware of the room for improvement is 99% of the battle.
Sorry about the long ramble. Have fun. Go sailing!
This means that I know the Jouster (no reasonable offer refused) inside out, and I've started getting to know Jumblie well, but it also means some big gaps ... until Jumblie I had hardly ever used an inboard engine, I'd never sailed a long keeler and I'd rarely been into marinas. Yes, it was all a bit embarrassing, but when the engine died (siezed alternator) as I went out of Largs Marina backwards an hour after taking delivery of her, I did have the sails ready to hoist and we were on our way with a delay of less than a minute.
But I digress. I spent ten years as an active glider pilot too, and I found it had two major effects on my sailing. First of all, I started appreciating the wind as a three dimensional phenomenon much more - an understanding of wind shear, curl-over, rotor, orographic lift, lee waves, catabatic winds and so on makes (or made for me) a lot more sense of sailing in sea lochs.
Second, it made me much more punctilious about safety matters. The DI (daily inspection) is such a natural and fundamental part of glider flying and ownership that I found it became automatic to check stuff on the boat, spotting potential problems long before they became actual ones. That, for example, is how and why I spotted that some sod had nicked the ring from a shroud clevis pin on the Jouster (n.r.o.r.) earlier this year.
For me the most effective way to improve at anything is effective reflection on past performance. If it takes me two goes to pick up the mooring under sail in Jumblie I don't beat myself up over it but I do give it some thought afterwards to work out what might have been better. Same with any other aspect of sailing - or flying, or anything else. Being aware of the room for improvement is 99% of the battle.
Sorry about the long ramble. Have fun. Go sailing!
Seajet
...
I couldn't agree more with Ubergeekian about pre-sail checks, it always amazes me more of a thing isn't made of this in sailing; I'm also from an aviation background, in my case as an aerial photographer, where I began with Test pilots happy to involve me in checks and with the experience to know that even in their case another set of eyes can be useful; with later outfits I've flown with any checks are very much in my interest !
One check I always do before setting off is the rigging pins all round; true, I can't check those aloft, but it does help confidence.
From that point on anyone can make up a checklist to suit their boat; a laminated copy printed out might well be an idea.
In my case it might be;
Keel lock out
Keel winch handle ready
Sail cover off
Tiller ties off
Rudder lowered
Halliards shackled on
Electrics on
Cockpit depthsounder on
Winch handle ready
Chart on table
Plotter page selected (probably SOG )
Forward vents shut
Forehatch closed
And so on; I also try the engine in gear forward & astern under load before leaving the mooring, even if I'm going to shut it down and sail off.
I think the OP would enjoy and benefit from a course with a good sailing school; something like a 'refresher' week, then a week leading to Yachtmaster Offshore.
If you haven't got the miles as skipper to take the exam, there's nothing to prevent you doing the course, and if fellow pupils are taking the exam you couldn't help but learn a lot, which applies to anyone I should think even if they've taken the exam before.
It would also be very enjoyable ! OneTop Tip; take the course as soon as possible, you get the top instructors in winter, and fellow pupils will be serious about it, not along for a sun-tan.
You do know the 'school' to avoid at all costs, I take it ?!
One check I always do before setting off is the rigging pins all round; true, I can't check those aloft, but it does help confidence.
From that point on anyone can make up a checklist to suit their boat; a laminated copy printed out might well be an idea.
In my case it might be;
Keel lock out
Keel winch handle ready
Sail cover off
Tiller ties off
Rudder lowered
Halliards shackled on
Electrics on
Cockpit depthsounder on
Winch handle ready
Chart on table
Plotter page selected (probably SOG )
Forward vents shut
Forehatch closed
And so on; I also try the engine in gear forward & astern under load before leaving the mooring, even if I'm going to shut it down and sail off.
I think the OP would enjoy and benefit from a course with a good sailing school; something like a 'refresher' week, then a week leading to Yachtmaster Offshore.
If you haven't got the miles as skipper to take the exam, there's nothing to prevent you doing the course, and if fellow pupils are taking the exam you couldn't help but learn a lot, which applies to anyone I should think even if they've taken the exam before.
It would also be very enjoyable ! OneTop Tip; take the course as soon as possible, you get the top instructors in winter, and fellow pupils will be serious about it, not along for a sun-tan.
You do know the 'school' to avoid at all costs, I take it ?!
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wotayottie
Well-Known Member
That says an awful lot about UK surgical practice - makes things like the bristol childrens heart problems more understandable.
However. my background is very similar to yours. But you are asking two different questions - one could be about how to handle various cruising situations like the one you describe, and the other is how you learn to sail better.
For the first. it's like any other learning process. Part you can learn from books, and part you learn from experience sailing with others. But some you work out for yourself. For example, in the case you quote you should have thought out an escape route before you left the pontoon / anchorage. The lesson to learn is - PRE PLAN every manoeuvre. Sit and think what can go wrong.
How do you learn to sail better? The only answer to that is to race. Unless you compete with others you never know whether you are sailing well or not. I'll give a frinstance. We have 2 Sigma 33 in out racing fleet, one owned by a long time racer, the other but a good average cruising sailor. The latter is a consistent 15% slower in each and every race and its all down to know how. So race as crew with others and race your own boat.
KellysEye
Well-Known Member
>Ocean sailing skills are something of a misnomer. If you can sail along coasts, then oceans are easy. It just takes longer thats all.
I agree coastal sailing is somewhat strenuous simply because of the navigation. I wouldn't say oceans are easy though. Firstly there is nowhwere to run and hide if a gale/storm is forecast. Secondly you can be sure that you will have a series of breakages. Typically torn sails (incredibly some don't carry spare sails), engine failure, generator failure, water maker failure, water pump failure, broken boom vang, broken goose neck, damaged rudder, leaking keel bolts, broken pole fitting, broken pole fitting on mast, stranded or broken rigging, block failure, block torn from deck, winch failure, instrument failures, nav light failures etc. The reason these things happen everything is loaded and moving 24x7 for weeks.
We have had many of those and know cruisers who have had all of those between them.
Never underestimate ocean sailing. People talk about the milk run, it can be but usually it isn't.
I agree coastal sailing is somewhat strenuous simply because of the navigation. I wouldn't say oceans are easy though. Firstly there is nowhwere to run and hide if a gale/storm is forecast. Secondly you can be sure that you will have a series of breakages. Typically torn sails (incredibly some don't carry spare sails), engine failure, generator failure, water maker failure, water pump failure, broken boom vang, broken goose neck, damaged rudder, leaking keel bolts, broken pole fitting, broken pole fitting on mast, stranded or broken rigging, block failure, block torn from deck, winch failure, instrument failures, nav light failures etc. The reason these things happen everything is loaded and moving 24x7 for weeks.
We have had many of those and know cruisers who have had all of those between them.
Never underestimate ocean sailing. People talk about the milk run, it can be but usually it isn't.
Seems a bit unfair to me Lakey.Nobody at least not I was criticizing his sailing ability (like you said he mentioned dinghy sailing & that's about as good as it gets as a method to learn to sail in my opinion) but what it is about is seamanship & learning in a smaller boat would make it more manageable for him & bring him in closer touch with nature.
Tides & currents may not be a big part of lake sailing but I can assure you that they have a hell of a lot of influence sailing around our coasts.It is handling your boat in these circumstances that is important.(& that's where the real pride & confidence comes from).
Hope this helps
westernman
Well-Known Member
Also chafe - sheets, halyards etc wearing through. It is exactly the same point on the sheet which is moving through the deck fairlead back and forth for days on end......
Your right your biased seajet,I know another 22 footer that I'd much rather have.Struggling over that raised cabin & slithering down that sloped forecabin in difficult conditions looks like a death trap but what do I know I have a much different boat
Koeketiene
Well-Known Member
Exactly.
Another reason why I don't really go with the 'go racing' advice.
Racing puts so much more strain on the rigging and sails.
When ocean cruising the first priority should be to arrive in one piece, not to arrive first/fast.
flaming
Well-Known Member
Always the first priority when racing I assure you.
To finish first, first you must finish.
Believe me there is nothing more likely to make you take your precautionary maintenance seriously than when things start breaking and costing you finishes and positions. It's pretty normal practice to see the whole crew swarming over the boat on the way back into harbour, checking the kit to see if anything needs repairing/ replacing before the next race.
So I would very much echo the advice that to really know how good a sailor you are, go racing. I thought I was pretty competent before I started racing, turns out I was average at best. The improvement in my boat handling skills in particular is outstanding. When you can hold a yacht on the startline in company with a whole bunch of others, and pick through the pack at a crowded mark rounding, picking up a mooring under sail no longer seems like a daunting task in the slightest.
Ubergeekian
Well-Known Member
That's a good way of learning to sail faster, not necessarily better.
flaming
Well-Known Member
Define "Better" then?
I'd say that ability to make the boat go faster, esp in very light or upwind in very strong conditions was one measure. Ability to handle manouvers in a prompt and seamanlike way is another, ability to get a boat from A to B with no damage was another. Ability to stop the boat in a defined place an manouver it with confidence in confined quaters under sail is another. Ability to make the correct sail choice for the conditions is another. Ability to manage a crew another.
All things that are immesurably improved by racing, perhaps you'd care to name a measure of "better" that is not improved by racing?
Koeketiene
Well-Known Member
Don't disagree - but not necessarily relevant for OP: ocean passages.
How many times do you hear comments from ARC participants: "we didn't see another boat after day 2".
Ditto sail choices: most ocean cruising yachts I know of carry main/genoa a cruising chute and a storm jib. Figuring out when to put a reef in not really that hard.
Crew management: most ocean cruisers are hubby & wife in their 50's or 60's. If you can't manage your wife/crew by then, chances are you never will.
westernman
Well-Known Member
The water temperature for the swim before lunch, the quality of lunch and the wine to go with it, the fact that mother in law is in a good mood so as to cook us all a good lunch being in the right position in the anchorage to get the best view of the sea plane landing or of the sunset, ...
There is much about successful cruising which has nothing to do with boat handling or going faster
Koeketiene
Well-Known Member
There is much about successful cruising which has nothing to do with boat handling or going faster
When we're out for just a jolly there are only so many tacks I can get away with before the crew starts grumbling and giving me strange looks.
So, I've become quite adept at keeping us on the same tack for as long as possible. In return, I get fed and the drinks/beers keep coming.
Is it the fastest way to get somewhere? Almost certainly not, but I don't have to deal with borderline mutiny situations.
Also avoids embarrassment/frustration later in the day: 'Not now darling, I'm just too tired'
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Ubergeekian
Well-Known Member
That depends on the boat, the crew and the aims. Unless you know what you want to do, you don't know if you're doing it better.
Is it sailing "better" if you get to your destination twenty minutes earlier at the cost of having half your crew seasick? Is it sailing "better" if your sails only last a season?
Maybe it is. Depends what you want to do. There is more to this game than day sailing round triangular courses.
Every single one of these can also be improved without racing. The one thing which essentially distinguishes racing from other sailing (or flying, or driving, or riding, or swimming, or ...) is going faster, and that will always be at a cost. Maybe a cost worth paying.
I'm not knocking racing at all, by the way - but it's only a part of the whole. Whizzing round the cans won't teach the OP much about passage planning, or safe anchoring, or cruise planning, and these are all things at which we cruising types strive to get "better".
I admire enormously the skills of expert racing sailors. I admire enormously the skills of expert cruising sailors. I just don't think those are entirely the same skills.
Woodlouse
Well-Known Member
I would say a good way to see how bad a sailor a hotshot racer is you take him cruising. It can be quite a surprise to see someone taken out of their comfort zone afloat, with an unfamiliar boat, doing an unfamiliar task on board. Suddenly a supposedly competent sailor becomes next to useless.
Personally I think the best way to learn sailing is to start on an old gaffer. Once you know how to sail and maneuver one of those, all other boats will seem simple in comparison.
