How do I become a better sailor

[tudorsailor]

my advice is to park the oyster somewhere for a summer and buy a £2.000 clunker - an old corribbee or seawych or a slug and go sailing by yourself

the smaller boat will sharpen your recations, its more forgiving when you run aground or screw up arriving at a pontoon and you will also get see to some great parts of this coastline that are utterly closed to the depth challenged behemoths.

in fact, heres a deal, I will rent the slug to you for a summer

Dylan

Lots of useful comments.

Dylan - the Oyster is parked for the year - at Oyster Brokerage! That is why have been on a crappy Sunsail charter yacht.
To those who have suggested dinghy sailing, I did say that I have done some in the past and then chartered, so am not someone who has only sailed on a 49 footer.
I am interested in the learning process. I often think surgery is similar to sailing in that it requires both practical skill with intellectual knowledge. As a surgeon, I almost never operate with another Consultant. However I discuss things with colleagues and also go on hands-on courses. In the brave new world of revalidation, maybe someone equally senior will watch me operate and I will will watch others operate. Bit like getting YachtMaster

Thanks to all contributors

TS

 

[dylanwinter]

in that case

Lots of useful comments.

Dylan - the Oyster is parked for the year - at Oyster Brokerage! That is why have been on a crappy Sunsail charter yacht.
To those who have suggested dinghy sailing, I did say that I have done some in the past and then chartered, so am not someone who has only sailed on a 49 footer.
I am interested in the learning process. I often think surgery is similar to sailing in that it requires both practical skill with intellectual knowledge. As a surgeon, I almost never operate with another Consultant. However I discuss things with colleagues and also go on hands-on courses. In the brave new world of revalidation, maybe someone equally senior will watch me operate and I will will watch others operate. Bit like getting YachtMaster

Thanks to all contributors

TS

buy a crabber with a diesel inboard

absolutely perfect - lots of string to pull - the boat looks lovely - great dayboat - easy to re-sell - towable.

look in boats and outboards - the right boats are always turning up

meanwhile watch some top notch creek crawling films so that you can see what sort of world opens up before your bows

 

[Tom Price]

Too darn big by far!

As Searush and others have opined, learn how to handle a dinghy FIRST, pbtaining RYA quals if inclined. That way you won't only learn 'emergency' techniques when the engine fails ,but gain far more pleasure when you're at sea.

With your present boat you could be condemned to marina-hopping but even that isn't foolproof; when directed to an upwind berth you and SWMBO aren't going to cope - even with a thruster you'll need more muscle to haul the boat alongside. That means 3 or 4 crew intruding on your weekend, as well as watching your mistakes!

I'm particularly sorry if the current situation has seduced you into a commensurate lifestyle - hot water, fridge, heating, all the electronic gizmos - but sacrifices will have to be made to get back to basics . There are many owners out there who find all they need inside 33ft LOA which is manageable both physically and financially; that should be your target AFTER learning to sail without an engine.
TP

PS I see two thirds of your Oyster 49 are up for sale.
Go the whole hog and get rid of it altogether!

 

[shaunksb]

Variety will help

.

The problem with sailing is that as skipper I rarely have anyone more experienced than me on board from whom to learn.

I too enjoy in the process of learning to sail. Having never really got into a text book since leaving Uni I found it refreshing to "learn" new things and put them into practice.

I would try and vary your sailing a little. Get off your boat and on to someone else's either by invitation or a mile building course or try something different like a week on a Challanger 72 (Tall Ships) or something. You will "pool" knowledge and learn so much more. Do your yachtmaster practicle but not on your boat - spend a weeks prep with other candidates and an experienced instructor.

You can learn a lot by just getting "stuck in" and having a go............... but presumably you didn't learn how to become a Surgeon that way


.

 

[tudorsailor]

.


I too enjoy in the process of learning to sail. Having never really got into a text book since leaving Uni I found it refreshing to "learn" new things and put them into practice.

I would try and vary your sailing a little. Get off your boat and on to someone else's either by invitation or a mile building course or try something different like a week on a Challanger 72 (Tall Ships) or something. You will "pool" knowledge and learn so much more. Do your yachtmaster practicle but not on your boat - spend a weeks prep with other candidates and an experienced instructor.

You can learn a lot by just getting "stuck in" and having a go............... but presumably you didn't learn how to become a Surgeon that way


.

Since you ask........ I am of the generation where most of one's surgical training was mostly self taught. At best it was "see one, do one, teach one". Someone once told me that my training as a junior surgeon was to enable me to do operations I had never seen before. In other words to use the principles of past experience to cope with the present challenge
Nowadays the surgical trainees expect to be taken through every operation before then doing it themselves. Probably better for the patients but not the best way of training a surgeon to be able to cope with the unexpected. Also not sure what happens when they become independant Consultants and have to learn how to do new procedures

 

[prv]

buy a crabber with a diesel inboard

absolutely perfect - lots of string to pull - the boat looks lovely - great dayboat - easy to re-sell - towable.

Bruddy expensive though. My uncle has just bought a Shrimper (he wants me to go and rig it for him in the spring, as he is a mechanical numpty ) and the price was amazing for an 18 footer. Seems he paid the going rate though; they're just expensive boats.

That said, I second the idea of starting small.

Pete

 

[Lakesailor]

Whilst a big boat such as that wouldn't appeal to me, I find a lot of the "advice" given is a bit demeaning.
Most comments border on the "well you've bought a big boat, but you really need to learn how to sail"
Fair enough, bit the OP did say

I did a bit of windsurfing and dinghy sailing in 20s and 30s.

No-one seems to have followed up on that.

Still, not unusual for the forums.

 

[Seajet]

Tudorsailor,

in the same vein as previous posts, I'd suggest a dinghy / dayboat ( mind it's easy to get ripped off with dayboats ) personally I think things like Shrimpers silly money for what they are, not too brilliant offshore and a diesel still allows bad habits.

I'm biased, but I've never found anything to beat one of these;

www.anderson22class.co.uk

- responsive enough to teach you a lot about sailing, while seaworthy to keep you out of trouble;PBO and S' Today seemed to rather like her.

Forget where you are but you're welcome for a spin from Chichester ( and my boat is NOT for sale, no ulterior motive ) !

 

[prr]

Pick an area where you think you'd like to sail, then its just a case of exploring that area. (Best done on a rising tide at first.) Gaining more & more local knowlege every time. Thats what makes a seaman local knowlege! So if you're a bit older rather than younger the Fal or the Solent is better than say Northern Europe or the USA.

 

[tudorsailor]

Whilst a big boat such as that wouldn't appeal to me, I find a lot of the "advice" given is a bit demeaning.
Most comments border on the "well you've bought a big boat, but you really need to learn how to sail"
Fair enough, bit the OP did say
No-one seems to have followed up on that.

Still, not unusual for the forums.

Quite so. My ultimate aim is to do the ARC when I retire - or maybe sooner. So dinghy skills may be less important that ocean seamanship. Maybe my title for the post was wrong

Thanks

TS

 

[KellysEye]

> I ought to have been ready to hoist a sail very quickly.

From what you said there you realise you made a mistake, which is good. We always get the main up as quickly as possible and the genoa ready go whenever we leave somewhere. In some places and always when there is tide but no wind we also have the anchor ready to go.

You mentioned 'what if'. Jane and I sat down and went though a long 'what if' session before we went long distance sailing. What if the rig falls down ,if we find strands broken in the rigging, if the engine fails, if all the electronics go down etc etc etc etc.

That gives you three things - what spares and kit to carry, what to do in any situation and confidence that you can do the right thing. It's noteworthy that it's usually the second mistake that kills you.

Beyond that there are three things you need - experience, experience and experience. Going out in more weather than you've been out in before gives you the been there done that feeling so you don't worry next time. In other words get experience by slowly pushing things.

 

[sarabande]

TS - a second thought (not unusual for me !)

You might find it useful to read Outliers by Malcolm Gladwell, in which he discusses the reasons behind successful people. There's a lot of work on what month you were born in for success in different fields, but of importance here is the number of hours that various successful people think is necessary to achieve pre-eminence. A general agreement on 10,000 hours to reach Gold standard.

I guess that many of the more experienced sailors here have notched up that 10k figure, but it just shows that to become really good, you just have to do the time.

 

[tudorsailor]

> I ought to have been ready to hoist a sail very quickly.

From what you said there you realise you made a mistake, which is good. We always get the main up as quickly as possible and the genoa ready go whenever we leave somewhere. In some places and always when there is tide but no wind we also have the anchor ready to go.

Absolutely right. Should have sails ready and anchor too. If you look here you can see that the entrance/exit is between two shallow reefs. On the day that the flotilla left, the waves were breaking due to 3m swell and a cross wind. Some of the flotilla were very inexperienced (made me feel like a salty sea dog - which obviously I am not) and I am surprised in retrospect that the lead crew did not tell everyone to have sails and anchor ready.

One boat did get their dinghy line around their prop just they were about to leave the marina into the channel. A few minutes later would have been a real disaster. By that time the lead crew had left for the next stop!

TS

 

[tudorsailor]

TS - a second thought (not unusual for me !)

You might find it useful to read Outliers by Malcolm Gladwell, in which he discusses the reasons behind successful people. There's a lot of work on what month you were born in for success in different fields, but of importance here is the number of hours that various successful people think is necessary to achieve pre-eminence. A general agreement on 10,000 hours to reach Gold standard.

I guess that many of the more experienced sailors here have notched up that 10k figure, but it just shows that to become really good, you just have to do the time.

Seems the 10k hours is an accepted norm. In this article about surgical training it says

Defining exactly how long it takes to train a surgeon may be impossible, but we estimate that about 15 000 to 20 000 hours are required. If elite expertise is attained after about 10 000 hours of practice, surgeons must train for twice this time to master both cognitive and manual skills. This “doubling” of time in training would hold true for any interventional specialty for which the practitioner must show manual skills as well as knowledge and judgment. We would not expect trainees to achieve mastery during their residency, so 20 000 hours may be an overestimate. However, most patients probably want independently practising surgeons to reach a level of skill that is well beyond adequacy.

My only concern with putting a number on training hours is that some people do the hours but remain **** surgeons - even though they become Consultants. Similarly there are those who will sail for years but lack natural aptitude. I guess that they will never make the 10k hours as they will not enjoy their hobby!

I will buy the book and learn about learning

Thanks

TS

 

[photodog]

Blimey! 3 Meter swell coming out of Spanish town! Were was that coming from!??

Dont sweat that exit... as your coming out there is plenty of room to stbd to poodle about!!

The entrance at Anegada is worse...

And try doing the gap between Virgin Gorda and Mosquito Island into Gorda Sound...

 

[Captain Haddock]

Get out there

I found that as much as I'd absorbed through reading there's no substitute for just getting out there and get to know your boat and how she handles.

It takes years to get to know a boat properly and as you get to know your boat you also get to understand what makes you as a sailor.

I assess things such as weather, tide, state of the boat, state of the crew, supplies, engine sound in fact everything constantly on passage. IMO you are absolutely right to play different scenarios before, during and after your journey.

I don't think sailing is a solo sport. However, being a skipper is, who can you turn to out there? One approach I've found that helps is to talk the crew through everything you are about to do when leaving, during the passage and before arrival. Just doing this playback also helps you to assess again whether your initial decisions were correct. Encourage crew to ask questions as this helps you when you try to explain your actions.

It's not just the boat scenarios you need to take into account it's also about you as a skipper. Were you too shouty? Did you respond quickly enough? Did you do enough preparation? What bits of the journey were down to luck or experience?

One thing I've learned to accept about sailing is that I'll always be learning, I'll never know it all, sailing will always be a challenge.

Courses can help provide a foundation to give you some confidence in the process but it's the completely random experience and the fact of never knowing what on earth is going to happen next that I love about sailing.

Just get out there and enjoy, just because you've got a biggun it doesn't mean you can't potter about anchoring, exploring and just having fun. You don't have to do mammoth journeys every season, take it easy. When you take it easy so will your crew, as a result you'll all enjoy sailing more and together you all grow as sailors over time.

 

[photodog]

I am curious... were do you think that your lack of skills lie?

 

[Elessar]

Here I am in mid-50s. I am not someone who sailed as a boy. I did a bit of windsurfing and dinghy sailing in 20s and 30s. Started yachting in mid 40s on a Sunsail learning flotilla. Have owned a yacht for 5 years. Have done YM theory. Did a Coastal Skipper course with instructor on my yacht.

The problem with sailing is that as skipper I rarely have anyone more experienced than me on board from whom to learn. I recently had PYD sail my yacht back to the UK and I joined the crew for the Biscay Crossing. The young skipper had huge experience and I learned a lot in the 4 days.

It strikes me that sailing is a solo sport - even when crew are on board, and most of us learn by mistakes. However there are things one can only learn by someone else showing one what to do in a given situation.

One thing I think I ought to do is to mentally do a "what if" scenario, when in a new situation. For example, on my recent charter in the BVIs I came out of a marina through a narrow channel with breaking surf on both sides. If my engine had failed, or I got a rope propped (as happened to another member of the flotilla) I ought to have been ready to hoist a sail very quickly. As it was I simply motored out uneventfully.

Another thing that maybe useful, is a notebook to note what went well and what went badly after each sail. It is rare to have a perfect sail so the what went badly would rapidly fill up! This is a technique being introduced into UK surgical practice.

How to other forumnites feel about learning more???

TS

First barrier to learning is attitude. Far too many boaters including some who post here think they know it all. Your approach is refreshing and suggests to me that you probably know more than you give yourself credit for, and that you will learn more every time you sail whether you try to or not.
At your obvious level of competence, there is no right and wrong, just a toolkit of experiences upon which to draw. So how to get more experience is the question. Lots of good ideas here already for that.

However the best way I've found so far is to become an instructor. The process of becoming an instructor makes you question why you do things, even the things you do instinctively and well. Then you learn from your students on every course you take. Go and have a word with a school and see what they say.

 

[phantomlady]

Try not to take it all too seriously....

 

[Woodlouse]

Try not to take it all too seriously....

The best advice so far. Just get on out there and enjoy yourself.

Ocean sailing skills are something of a misnomer. If you can sail along coasts, then oceans are easy. It just takes longer thats all.

And remember, real single handed sailing is when you don't let go of the G&T during maneuvers.