How could RYA training be improved?

[Praxinoscope]

Putting on a diversity and inclusion hat for a moment, it's not important how someone gets to the answer, it's important that they do and do so quickly. Learning by rote is only one option.

You forgot to add that when getting the answer you get the correct answer.

 

[Buck Turgidson]

I consider myself a new comer, but not necessarily inexperienced. I note that many (all?) respondents reference long held experiences. Maybe things have changed recently, probably YouTube driven.

On our travels we've come across a lot of young couples and early retirees with a similar background to us. Like us many have had bad experiences with DS, think the YM is irrelevant and that it does not cover subjects they would value highly.

When I say similar background.... For example, we are virtual liveaboards and sail as a couple. We bought our 1st boat in January 2019. We have been sailing for only 3 years. Our first passage was a winter, night time channel crossing and we have never returned to any port of call. We have exceeded the qualifying sea time, by some margin for all, but the Ocean section of the YM.

Unlike the old days, when knowledge transfer was done face-to-face, much of the YM theory content can be studied and examined online. From the comments made by some of the long time served mariners in this thread this is clearly a significant retrograde step. Do I need to explain why?

W.r.t. to passing the practical, a YM instructor/examiner has tested me on my boat and told me that the YM has nothing to teach me and that he would teach me how to pass the test if I wanted to get the qualification.

I'm not asking anyone to defend or rationalize the current training. Maybe the solution would have nothing to do with the RYA. but how would an aspiring, new to sailing couple get the knowledge and support they need and would value to buy a boat and circumnavigate the world (or some other significant body of water)?

I really don't understand your position.
You have learned by doing and been told you could be coached to pass a test that you don't think is relevant. You have been told by some that they had bad experiences doing DS but you haven't done it yourself.

You appear to believe that despite having not done the courses you know better.

I have done the courses and some parts were very easy, some parts took practice and advice and other parts were completely new to me and I hadn't even considered them. I learnt skills which I will only need in abnormal situations but I have learned them so am a little more prepared than I would otherwise had been.
I found comp crew a fun holiday week with a nice introduction to yachts and yachting. DS theory was basic and broad reaching and pointed me towards subjects of interest. DS did what it says on the tin and allowed me to bareboat charter with family and friends in sunny places. After which I took the plunge and bought a boat, knowing enough to not get sold a lemon. I built enough experience to sail to the med (nonstop single handed because I like a challenge) and after that did YM theory and exam which highlighted a couple of areas to work on and gave me validation that I was on the right track and not sailing like a T**T which some do completely obliviously because no one has shown them the best practices or highlighted appropriate levels of required knowledge (Light, sound, etc).

There is nothing wrong with RYA training and there are lots of other ways of learning sailing skills and cruising knowledge. And with a UK flagged yacht you don't need any qualifications, just insurance for when you screw up.

 

[AntarcticPilot]

As a professional cartographer, you probably have a much greater depth of knowledge on Charts and Chartwork than most mariners.

That was the basis of some of the discussions the instructor and I had! But the real take-away from my professional skills (cartography was only a part of it) is that the map is NOT the territory, and that you should use everything at your disposal. One particular thing my work taught me was how to evaluate different sources of information, so as to use the highest quality information to inform the analysis or compilation. I think many people go wrong by relying on a single source of information, be it chart-plotter or chart, and don't think to mentally edit it with what they can see. As many things can change quite rapidly in the shallow waters of the East Coast, I think that it is important to have the mindset that the chart is NOT necessarily the last word!

As my work often involved making use of incomplete or inaccurate data, with no prospect of better data being available, it comes naturally to me to be very aware of the limitations of what I have.

 

[KompetentKrew]

On our travels we've come across a lot of young couples and early retirees with a similar background to us. Like us many have had bad experiences with DS, think the YM is irrelevant and that it does not cover subjects they would value highly.

When I say similar background.... For example, we are virtual liveaboards and sail as a couple. We bought our 1st boat in January 2019. We have been sailing for only 3 years. Our first passage was a winter, night time channel crossing and we have never returned to any port of call. We have exceeded the qualifying sea time, by some margin for all, but the Ocean section of the YM.

My background is very similar, first sailed in 2018 and singlehanded Biscay a couple of years later, but I don't think the RYA can teach some kind of substitute for experience.

It seems to me that the Day Skipper is designed for you, on qualification, to be able to buy a 20' - 35' keelboat, berth it in Gosport or somewhere, and cruise the familiar waters of the Solent. After a year or two of visiting Chichester and Newtown Creek you can be expected to sail at night with more confidence, start making longer passages, to places like Weymouth, Studland and Dartmouth and you will be ready to take the step to Coastal Skipper. It seems to me perfectly designed for that.

I think you mentioned in a previous reply your experience repairing the boat in an Atlantic swell, but the RYA can't teach every aspect of boat maintenance - had you followed the programme I laid out in my last paragraph then you would have been fixing the boat in the Solent or Lyme bay instead of off the Portuguese coast. The difference between gaining your experience along the south coast and on extended cruising is that you have to find spare parts and tools in unfamiliar towns and deal with shopkeepers who speak another language.

I have made lots of mistakes since attaining Coastal Skipper, buying my boat and setting off for sunnier climes - some I should have known better, and regret not paying more attention as crew, and others I simply accept as caused by lack of experience. I just think there's this point at which you have to get out and do it, and there are limitations to what can be taught.

I have long envied people who grew up in sailing families - this forum is filled with people who've been sailing for decades and I wouldn't be surprised if the average poster here has been sailing more than 20 years. I think this forum frequently under-appreciates how much they know and takes their own skills for granted. About the only time we are confronted with this is when someone comes along announcing that their bitcoin investments have matured and that they plan to buy a big Beneteau catamaran and sail it to Patagonia - do they need to do competent crew, or can they just study Day Skipper online and skip to the practical test? Then the gap between practical experience and what you can learn online become really obvious. I expect to spend the next decade learning things that "everybody knows" and that no-one thought to mention.

 

[Uricanejack]

That was the basis of some of the discussions the instructor and I had! But the real take-away from my professional skills (cartography was only a part of it) is that the map is NOT the territory, and that you should use everything at your disposal. One particular thing my work taught me was how to evaluate different sources of information, so as to use the highest quality information to inform the analysis or compilation. I think many people go wrong by relying on a single source of information, be it chart-plotter or chart, and don't think to mentally edit it with what they can see. As many things can change quite rapidly in the shallow waters of the East Coast, I think that it is important to have the mindset that the chart is NOT necessarily the last word!

As my work often involved making use of incomplete or inaccurate data, with no prospect of better data being available, it comes naturally to me to be very aware of the limitations of what I have.

This is a level of insight I find difficult to adequately explain to some of the new generation of navigators who have grown up in a world where apparent accuracy is the norm. Again most of them have experience only on our own local coast which is very well charted and mostly very deep.

I on the other hand have used charts which much to my amusement were still based on surveys by Flinders and the HMS Beagle.
I am disappointed, I don’t think I ever used a chart based on survey by Cook. That would have been cool.

One of the times I surprise, some, A particularly approach I do from time to time is to a place with a bar, the shore line is very low lying, has very few features with a long fore shore. To make it more fun the weather is usually crap.
Despite all our mod cons.
To this day, I still use a sounder for my wheel overs,

One of the first questions I ask a prospective new OOW. Hand them the tables and ask, Whats the height of tide at the bar? you would be amazed how many times I get a blank look. Or they put the tables down and try find it on the GPS or ECDIS.

Some people think I’m a crazy old dinosaur

 

[AntarcticPilot]

This is a level of insight I find difficult to adequately explain to some of the new generation of navigators who have grown up in a world where apparent accuracy is the norm. Again most of them have experience only on our own local coast which is very well charted and mostly very deep.

I on the other hand have used charts which much to my amusement were still based on surveys by Flinders and the HMS Beagle.
I am disappointed, I don’t think I ever used a chart based on survey by Cook. That would have been cool.

One of the times I surprise, some, A particularly approach I do from time to time is to a place with a bar, the shore line is very low lying, has very few features with a long fore shore. To make it more fun the weather is usually crap.
Despite all our mod cons.
To this day, I still use a sounder for my wheel overs,

One of the first questions I ask a prospective new OOW. Hand them the tables and ask, Whats the height of tide at the bar? you would be amazed how many times I get a blank look. Or they put the tables down and try find it on the GPS or ECDIS.

Some people think I’m a crazy old dinosaur

There's nothing wrong with old surveys; their RELATIVE accuracy will be as good as more modern surveys; surveying as a discipline didn't really change much between the 18th century and the late 20th century - I saw the transition from trigonometric survey to GPS survey during my working life. and trigonometric survey si still alive and well in many situations. Where they fall down is that the ABSOLUTE accuracy doesn't meet modern standards. But as that's a situation that is commonplace except in exceptionally well-mapped areas (e.g. the UK!) we should always be ready to encounter it. The thing is that a trigonometric survey can have excellent relative accuracy - but it's absolute accuracy depends on the accuracy of positioning of the datum. Pre 1990, that meant the accuracy of astro fixes, which were good to about 100-200m, unless there was a full-blown astronomical observatory, So an old survey is fine - as long as you navigate with respect to landmarks, not to the absolute reference of GPS!

 

[Dodgy Diver]

I did the powerboat level 2 last year and bloody loved it
this week have been doing the online navigation course . I felt they assumed a lot and didn't explain in enough detail , had to google things

vhf course on 6th march booked

 

[Never Grumble]

The one thing that I found odd going through the DS - CS - YM path was how little emphasis was placed on actual sailing ability, as distinct to ability to manoeuvred a boat or navigate it.

I find that quite disappointing really. I have an old YM Offshore certificate (power driven) and have occasionally thought that one day I would do the conversion so that I am qualified for sailing. No one wants to do the conversion and I dont really want to spend 7 days proving I can tie a knot, throw and anchor over the side and navigate in the dark, if the gains on the sailing side of thing will be minimal.

Perhaps to tick the sail box, I will just go and do a sailing ICC.

 

[ctva]

I did the powerboat level 2 last year and bloody loved it
this week have been doing the online navigation course . I felt they assumed a lot and didn't explain in enough detail , had to google things

vhf course on 6th march booked

Good to hear (with my fellow stink boaters hat on ?). Nav is a female dog to learn and remember, just stick at it and read the RYA Navigation book, nice and clear but takes time.

Of all the courses, I most enjoy the Advanced as it involves night nav and pilotage. So keep at it and enjoy it but do gain personal experience practicing the skills.

 

[[70521]]

There's nothing wrong with old surveys; their RELATIVE accuracy will be as good as more modern surveys; surveying as a discipline didn't really change much between the 18th century and the late 20th century - I saw the transition from trigonometric survey to GPS survey during my working life. and trigonometric survey si still alive and well in many situations. Where they fall down is that the ABSOLUTE accuracy doesn't meet modern standards. But as that's a situation that is commonplace except in exceptionally well-mapped areas (e.g. the UK!) we should always be ready to encounter it. The thing is that a trigonometric survey can have excellent relative accuracy - but it's absolute accuracy depends on the accuracy of positioning of the datum. Pre 1990, that meant the accuracy of astro fixes, which were good to about 100-200m, unless there was a full-blown astronomical observatory, So an old survey is fine - as long as you navigate with respect to landmarks, not to the absolute reference of GPS!

Andy, do you lecture on this stuff? Perhaps time for a PBO user Zoom call on this?

 

[AntarcticPilot]

Andy, do you lecture on this stuff? Perhaps time for a PBO user Zoom call on this?

Well, I used to run courses for academics that included some of this!

Seriously, I'm a practised public speaker and lecturer.

I prefer live speaking, though - it's difficult to judge audience reaction on Zoom, though I have spoken using it.

PS, it's Paul; none of my name's are Andy?

 

[Dodgy Diver]

Good to hear (with my fellow stink boaters hat on ?). Nav is a female dog to learn and remember, just stick at it and read the RYA Navigation book, nice and clear but takes time.

Of all the courses, I most enjoy the Advanced as it involves night nav and pilotage. So keep at it and enjoy it but do gain personal experience practicing the skills.

the boat has yet to get wet , but trying to get a good basic starting point before I make a mistake in the water

 

[Devon Boy]

I only really have experience of the specialist courses, but those I have attended were good. However, I have been interested to see that people's experience of the Diesel engine course has often varied widely from mine. Mione was excellent, taught by a hands-on engineer who obviously understood his material very well, and was able to explain it clearly, with many pieces of actual engines and components in the classroom, and down-to-earth, practical suggestions about "what to do if...". Others have described bare-bones, by the book teaching with little practical material. In the sailing courses, I have heard on these fora of completely incorrect explanations being given about phenomena such as the Earth's magnetic field. The conclusion I came to is that the RYA sets good syllabuses, but is not so good at ensuring that the teaching standard is uniformly high, or that instructors have wider understanding of the material they are teaching. Perhaps a greater investment into the oversight of courses is needed? I recognize that there is oversight, but given criticisms of courses on here, I wonder if it is sufficient?

I think one of the biggest issues in relation to the above is the potential for instructor “burn out” or “teaching fatigue”. Lots of this IMO stems from the seasonal nature of the where pressure is on to churn out shore based in the winter (normally by a very small group of full time employed instructors) at a school and in the spring summer smashing out the practical courses. I’m not saying for one minute this is an excuse or acceptable, just that I have seen it happen. This may also be where people are having a negative experience between the differences on DS & CS. If an instructor has spent 3 or 4 weeks doing back to back courses on a yacht they likely won’t be their best in week 4, possibly just “going through the motions” When I was working at a sea school full time we sent some instructors home on an enforced/ suggested week off when they weren’t performing their best.

 

[Devon Boy]

On b

I've heard that too. Which doesn't make it sound very relevant to a single hander.

But it's a bit hard, looking at the RYA website, to work out what would be appropriate. Every so often I think about doing a practical sailing course - but nothing on the RYA site seems to fit. It doesn't help with the extensive muddying of the waters between Day Skipper / Coastal Skipper / Yachtmaster Coastal. I'm sure there's loads I could learn, but if the stated aim of a course is that I can sail in familiar waters by day, when I already feel competent in that, then it isn't clear what I'd be getting for several hundred quid and a week of my time. The info on the RYA site is pretty abysmal, to be honest. But that's probably outside the scope of the OP's four questions.

Own boat tuition may well be your best option. Course completion on your own vessel with specific guidance to the way you run it

 

[rotrax]

I find that quite disappointing really. I have an old YM Offshore certificate (power driven) and have occasionally thought that one day I would do the conversion so that I am qualified for sailing. No one wants to do the conversion and I dont really want to spend 7 days proving I can tie a knot, throw and anchor over the side and navigate in the dark, if the gains on the sailing side of thing will be minimal.

Perhaps to tick the sail box, I will just go and do a sailing ICC.

Unless you use you qualification commercialy there is no point.

Learn how to sail, that is all that is missing for you.

I can say that from First Mate's and my point of view once the RYA practical courses were out of the way, hours on the water sailing our own boat bought the most improvement. Confidence too.

We educated ourselves using the most excellent RYA 'Navigation' and Yachtmaster' manuals, took the practical courses when we felt ready.

First Mate has DS, I have CS.

 

[Never Grumble]

Unless you use you qualification commercialy there is no point.

Learn how to sail, that is all that is missing for you.

I can say that from First Mate's and my point of view once the RYA practical courses were out of the way, hours on the water sailing our own boat bought the most improvement. Confidence too.

We educated ourselves using the most excellent RYA 'Navigation' and Yachtmaster' manuals, took the practical courses when we felt ready.

First Mate has DS, I have CS.

Thanks its very much inline with my thoughts. We take the yacht out in all weathers and learn to sail on the job , doesn't always go completely to plan but it's how you deal with issues and how you reflect on what could have been done differently once alongside and then put that into practice next time. I spent 8 years at sea with the RN so I'm not concerned about doing so and at the same time have the greatest respect for the sea/conditions. I'm a bit of a reader to so always keen to improve my knowledge.

 

[QBhoy]

Although, I’m of the opinion that an rya course should be considered a good notion for a newbie boat owner at least….I’m also of the opinion that it should not be considered that once you’ve completed one, the course nominee should be considered accomplished and competent there after. I think there just isn’t a better way of becoming so, than time spent on the water..even more so, in the company of a friend or similar that has a good few years experience behind them…perhaps local knowledge too. No better way to learn than this, I’d think. A day or so learning text book manoeuvres, some theory and a certificate, doesn’t make an accomplished person..I think anyway. Good start…but not the be all and end all. The idea that it can or making such a thing mandatory to any boat owner, is a silly notion, I’d suggest ?

 

[lustyd]

But on the flip side experience is no substitute for education. I’ve seen people with many years behind them who have been reinforcing bad techniques for a long time. Practice makes perfect is only useful if you’re practicing a good thing!

 

[RobbieW]

But on the flip side experience is no substitute for education. I’ve seen people with many years behind them who have been reinforcing bad techniques for a long time. Practice makes perfect is only useful if you’re practicing a good thing!

That is undoubtedly so. Part of the OPs premise, in later posts, is that with the plethora of video material available today why are the RYA courses still relevant. Part of the answer to that is that no-one is checking those videos for 'correctness', they survive more on popularity. I think Tom Cunliife once said something like there are no 'correct' ways to do things on boats although some of those ways will get you in trouble quicker than others. In general, IMO the ability to discriminate is based on experience. As I've said earlier in this discussion, the RYA based courses provide a reasonable set of skills on which to build.

 

[sashat720]

Day Skipper. Skipper a yacht in familiar waters by day. Converts commercially to 20 miles from a safe haven.

Yachtmaster Coastal. Skipper a yacht on coastal passages by day and night. Converts commercially to up to 60 miles from a safe haven. The 60 miles may surprise some to learn that's in a rescue helicopter response time originally.

Do the above mile limits still apply?

Did the RYA/MCA downgrade the mile limit for YM Coastal from 60 miles to 20 miles?

Here‘s the current limit specified:

„A commercially endorsed Yachtmaster Coastal Certificate of Competence will enable you to skipper vessels up to 24 metres in length, operating in category 3,4,5, and 6 waters - up to 20 miles from a safe haven.“

Source: Working as an RYA Yachtmaster | Where can you work with a Yachtmaster Certificate of Competence?