How could RYA training be improved?

[Uricanejack]

I agree with those who say that the courses don't match their experience of yachting. I too am a family sailor (or was!), and skills in short-handed sailing would be far more useful than crew management. When I looked at the Competent Crew handbook, for example, it assumes that the neophyte sailor would be joining a yacht as if it was a completely separate world. In fact, the vast majority of us sail on yachts that are the family holiday; we all know each other and have long-established routines! And husband and wife (or equivalent) are probably a far more common crew than 5 or 6 able-bodied persons. When I did my ICC I was very struck by this - the examiner was willing and able to act as crew and having an active and competent crew member made a great difference to my ability to handle the boat! Things I would have been reluctant to do with my wife alone became easy; things I would never have tried with my wife as crew became possible The courses probably ought to consider and practice how a weak crew can handle the boat. MOB for a person left alone by the MOB would be very useful judging by the numerous threads on that subject!

Of course, own-boat training can overcome these deficiencies by presenting the instructor with the actual situation the trainee will be in! But even then, simply having a competent person present alters the dynamics; you know that there is someone who knows what to do if it all goes pear-shaped!

Admittedly, when you say RYA. Yachtmaster springs to mind as a generic term. Which is a pretty high requirement for a typical family sailing.
I can see, a YM is probably overkill for the average husband and wife. So probably most don’t bother.
Whats the problem with competent crew or day skipper?
The Day Skipper is a basic sailing course, By it’s nature, it has to be quite generic, It’s intended as a starting point. Some people taking the course will be starting from scratch, others may have been sailing or boating in some other way for years.
To be a basic entry level, it’s got to include very basic beginner entry level content.
Reputedly they are a pretty good way to start.

I suppose private tuition could be better tailored and. suited to your particular needs or choices. But what’s the standard?

My understanding is the RYA is a governing body, setting a standard. Which individual sailing schools schools use to creat a sailing course. Which contains a standard level of knowledge and practice.
So what do you expect? The answer i would expect is what it says on the box.
A competent crew. Be a useful crew member who can assist you on an average sail boat.
A Day Skipper, To be safe taking a friends or family out sailing for a day on an average sailboat somewhere familiar.

From there as you gain experience you can progressively take on more, eg sail a small boat by yourself. Or go further and stay out later, sail over night
What do you get out of it ? Hopefully some useful knowledge, experience and confidence. Plus you can say to someone, Hey I have RYA and they know what it means.

 

[capnsensible]

To gain experience you have to have an open mind and eyes.

Competent is not skillfull.

As the old saying goes, you can lead a horse to water...

But a pencil must be lead.

 

[Uricanejack]

OP here. That's a very good question, Sea-Fever. The short answer is... For us there is has been a significant gap between what the RYA offers and what it could offer in order to better meet the demands of modern day cruisers. I was hoping that respondents, with a good deal more experience than I, would come up with some constructive and far reaching suggestions. For us the gap was filled by the CA, which in 100% cruising focused and has some global focus where the RYA is UK only. We are turning to the mentoring offer from the OCC for the next stage of our adventure because the RYA does not have a viable offer.

My wife and I bought our first boat in 2019 and set sail on a very slow circumnavigation. Prior to that we did a flotilla, a week with a skipper and a week on a bare boat charter. Three weeks total, all in the Ionian. One of us had to get an ICC for the bare boat. The Day Skipper was not relevant for what we wanted to do at that point in time and was inadequate for what we wanted to do next.

We would like to have done a YM before we set off on our circumnavigation, but we didn't have the requisite qualifying experience... which seen arse about face to me. I'd like to do an YM Ocean 'cause we're crossing to the Caribbean early next year, but I can't because I haven't got the qualifying experience.... again, arse about face?

So far we've made it to the Balearic's without significant incident. I'm now doing the YM OS theory. Having 'nursed' an anxious wife and a complex blue water boat around one of the (apparently, so I'm told) most challenging coasts in the world, I'm finding the course lacking in the content that one might consider more important than the RYA content presented. I get the feeling that I am being asked to jump through hoops because they can be tested rather than being coached on the thing that will help me be a better/safer sailor.

I learned that the ability to accurately calculate tidal flow and height is useless and possibly dangerous in many (probably most) of the places where it's important to get it right. The environmental noise trumps the accuracy of the calculations and the only way to navigate safely is to ask for and trust local knowledge.

I also learned that Spanish ferries operate to a 'different version' of the ColRegs than everyone else and that Portuguese fishermen haven't been on an RYA course.... 'cause I haven't seen one yet displaying anything like the prescribes lights.

I've learned that it is essential that know how to check and maintain your own rigging, which means knowing how to climb a mast safely. You also need to know a whole lot more about your drive chain and related emergency procedures than the RYA covers. I.e. how to be prepared for and change a starter motor at sea, on a lea shore, in less that 15 minutes and how to deal with the catastrophic failure of a stern gland so your boat doesn't sink.

I found that knowing how to diagnosed electrical failure under stress and how to do power management are vitally important.

W.r.t. RYA content I'm finding the need to memorize lights, day shapes and sounds a waste of time and brain space because I can read and have a copy of Reeds Skippers Handbook on the nav desk.

I could go on, but I'd like to hear from other how the RYA might improve their offering??

Don’t bother just keep winging it.

 

[capnsensible]

My ICC practical exam lasted about 45/60 minutes. I had just done the theory & got one question wrong. When he asked me about it I realised the error & corrected it. We ( the examiner & I) went aboard the training Sigma 33, motored out of Bradwell marina, hoisted sails & sailed for about 15 minutes. When he was about to hoist the jib I pointed out that he had threadled the jib sheets wrongly, which I am not sure went down well. We did a heave too a gybe & a couple of tacks & he said, " This is a waste of time, you know how to handle a boat. Let's go back" I docked the boat. At the berth he said he would be leaving for a couple of minutes, would I tie up in the correct manner. Oddly enough !!! the springs & bow lines were the wrong way round so I swopped them & when he came back he said " Congratulations, you can call that a pass". So long lessons etc to pass an ICC are not necessary if one has done a bit of sailing ( well 30 years at that time) It must be the easiest sailing cert to obtain. Either that or the examiner was being lazy.

You can look at and download the ICC test form from the RYA website. I always ask people to do that well in advance and make sure they understand what it's all about. For an experienced sailor it's simple. Not all sailors are experienced....

 

[Keith 66]

To answer the original question, Our club has been running a sucessful cadet week for nearly 30 years. My wife & i have been involved for most of them. Every year around 40 kids have come along & spent 4 days learning to sail & having a mostly good time. They start in oppies at age 8 then go to toppers & then race group, some may become assistant instructors & help out themselves as they get old enough. Then they go to college, Uni, get girl or boyfriends, get jobs move away & you have lost them. Legions of kids have done this over nearly 30 years.
Where are they now? retention in sailing is shite our club is no exception. A few come back in their 40's but most are lost!
Why is this?
I think the bottom line is that kids start out being put into single handers & only go into two handed boats when they are considered to be more advanced, kids today at school are not allowed to fail at school, deadlines get extended over & over, they get help all the time.
Then you chuck a kid in a boat & an adult bellows instructions at them, they are out of their comfort zone. Some kids thrive on this the majority dont. Some hate it. After the week is over you wont see most of them till next year!
The RYA's principal reason for training the way it does is to win Olympic medals.
But they have forgotten that sailing is supposed to be fun & that you know sometimes just going for a sail is enough.
Start them in two or three handed boats & have an adventure, put the sodding fun back into it.

 

[Daydream believer]

To answer the original question, Our club has been running a sucessful cadet week for nearly 30 years. My wife & i have been involved for most of them. Every year around 40 kids have come along & spent 4 days learning to sail & having a mostly good time. They start in oppies at age 8 then go to toppers & then race group, some may become assistant instructors & help out themselves as they get old enough. Then they go to college, Uni, get girl or boyfriends, get jobs move away & you have lost them. Legions of kids have done this over nearly 30 years.
Where are they now? retention in sailing is shite our club is no exception. A few come back in their 40's but most are lost!
Why is this?
I think the bottom line is that kids start out being put into single handers & only go into two handed boats when they are considered to be more advanced, kids today at school are not allowed to fail at school, deadlines get extended over & over, they get help all the time.
Then you chuck a kid in a boat & an adult bellows instructions at them, they are out of their comfort zone. Some kids thrive on this the majority dont. Some hate it. After the week is over you wont see most of them till next year!
The RYA's principal reason for training the way it does is to win Olympic medals.
But they have forgotten that sailing is supposed to be fun & that you know sometimes just going for a sail is enough.
Start them in two or three handed boats & have an adventure, put the sodding fun back into it.

I had an RYA training officer crew me in a race one day. He came as a friend of another crew. I challenged him on your last point. he corrected me & said this was a fallacy. The RYA actually were, at the time , running fun days. Sailing was NOT the principle day. They combined the days with some other group activities to get the kids to know each other. I do not recall the full conversation but it totally rejected your final observation.

Of course they have full on race training weekends. Some of our kids go on them & some of the groups visit our club mid winter in the coldest of weather. One wonders what on earth they are enduring. But their parents fork out £hundreds so their kids can go. The kids from our club that do it seem to be really keen. They would not be the slightest bit interested in climbing walls running round fields playing games etc.

What has always come out ( and this is NOT just sailing) is the interference of parents. Some arrive in expensive RIBS & follow kids round shouting at the kids. They harrass the instructors to the extent that instructors feel disinclined to continue. Ask people who have tried to run boxing & football clubs about the problem.
The RYA sometimes haveto operate a system whereby parents are banned from sail rigging areas & their kids are removed from sailing if the parents interfere in the sailing.

One has to remember that getting 2 families to take their kids to a sailing club at the same time so that the 2 kids can sail together is not always easy. There are families with more than one child & they can be torn between 2 sports. Dinghies are expensive. To get to a situation where a child can be guaranteed a sail it is better to buy a cheap Topper & one parent takes that child. That child gets to sail SH. How he/she mixes with others is really down to their own personality. Some mix easily, others do not. The other parent takes the other child somewhere else.

My kids were lucky, I had a holiday home 200yds from the club so weekends were always there. Not many families have that luxury. They had a cadet & the gear & I just left them to get on with it. They learned from the others. They both agreed that was best. The only time Dad got involved was when something broke & needed paying for

 

[lustyd]

n a similar fashion, if a 'student' continually posts false claims on a public forum, anyone can take issue with that no matter how fragile that person may feel about being invited to review their misunderstanding.

How about the reverse. If an "instructor" is representing the organisation in a very neagative way on a public forum, can they be reported? Perhaps the "instructors" would like to post their instructor numbers so the RYA can be consulted on the matter.

So far I've not seen any students saying anything particularly bad or incorrect. Just people reporting their views and experiences as requested on the thread.

 

[AntarcticPilot]

I suppose private tuition could be better tailored and. suited to your particular needs or choices. But what’s the standard?

Own boat tuition follows the same syllabus and standards as any other course. But it can be tailored more precisely to the needs of the trainees.

I don't see how people can do the ICC in 45 minutes. It requires you to demonstrate boat-handling skills, at least basic navigational ability, collision regulations etc. My instructor regarded it as equivalent to Day Skipper; if you could do ICC there was no point in doing Day Skipper. I was out all day and the instructor went into considerable detail; I had to demonstrate the ability to work out course to steer, general situational awareness, sail a triangular course, pick up a buoy and do a MOB. There was a two page list of topics to be covered, and you had to satisfy the instructor that you understood them all. I probably went further in some areas than strictly necessary; the instructor and I were learning from each other! He was interested in how I did the course to steer; I just apply vector triangles, but it was different to the way he did it. And he asked searching questions about my experience.

 

[[70521]]

I'm struggling to understand your comment here. You said that the YM was described to you "as a qualification in crew management". My comment is that this view doesn't make it sound very relevant to a single hander. Obviously I don't know what it's actually like, as I've never done YM. But it doesn't sound relevant to someone who never manages crew.

Your experiences of being part of a crew of 24 are irrelevant to the way the course sounds to a single-hander.

Indeed I did. Being taught in a standard gives people knowledge of how things should happen. How far you want to go up the RYA training scheme is up to you. What it has given me is knowledge to perform a number of roles:

• As a single hander I take total responsibility for everything that happens on board from trimming sails to cooking, navigation and buying post voyage drinks.
• As a watch leader I get delegated a task by the skipper or first mate for my watch to do. I then manage my watch to perform that task be that, sail trim or cooking and we all go to the pub and buy a round.
• As a skipper I have overall responsibility for the running of the vessel. I get the crew to perform tasks then hopefully the crew buys all the drinks.

We are very fortunate in the UK that you don't need to pass an exam to take a vessel to sea. If it's not your bag then fine, but if you sail with others and do things 'the Black Sheep way' it can make things quite difficult for other people. An example - spent a week with a pal and we tied up against a river pontoon for the night. I came to cast off one of the lines and because the OXO had not been done in a way that could be undone easily with 5 tonne of boat being dragged down stream in a 3 knot tide it cause a delay of 15 mins in departure. Had he been taught the same method that I had we would not have had that problem. A bit of grunting and full reverse sorted out the problem. We then spent time discussing the pros and cons of the OXO.

 

[Praxinoscope]

As Sandy says in #89, we are fortunate in the U.K. in there being no official requirement to pass and exam to take a vessel to sea,
In view of this, I sometimes find the animosity towards RYA training a bit surprising.
I followed the RYA shore based courses from Competent Crew through to Yachtmaster Ocean and every level helped me further towards the practical YM exam. I also found it advantageous to do these shore based courses in classes with others as it gave the added opportunity of discussing the subjects covered in thé bar later. The practical side originated in an old mirror dinghy followed by totalling up the required sea time in a Leisure 17 and then a Foxterrier 22.
But….there is no compulsion to have anything to do with the RYA or it’s training, (which on average from personal experience I would rate fairly highly), although why anyone who enjoys their sailing would not wish to learn more I don’t really understand.
Of course the RYA is not perfect, show me any organisation of this type that is, but considering the wide span of water based activities it covers it seems to me to do a reasonable, maybe not allways a perfect, on of it.

 

[Sea-Fever]

I agree with those who say that the courses don't match their experience of yachting. I too am a family sailor (or was!), and skills in short-handed sailing would be far more useful than crew management. When I looked at the Competent Crew handbook, for example, it assumes that the neophyte sailor would be joining a yacht as if it was a completely separate world. In fact, the vast majority of us sail on yachts that are the family holiday; we all know each other and have long-established routines! And husband and wife (or equivalent) are probably a far more common crew than 5 or 6 able-bodied persons. When I did my ICC I was very struck by this - the examiner was willing and able to act as crew and having an active and competent crew member made a great difference to my ability to handle the boat! Things I would have been reluctant to do with my wife alone became easy; things I would never have tried with my wife as crew became possible The courses probably ought to consider and practice how a weak crew can handle the boat. MOB for a person left alone by the MOB would be very useful judging by the numerous threads on that subject!

Of course, own-boat training can overcome these deficiencies by presenting the instructor with the actual situation the trainee will be in! But even then, simply having a competent person present alters the dynamics; you know that there is someone who knows what to do if it all goes pear-shaped!

That is a great way to put it and where the real value of instruction would lie. Why not have a friendly and supportive individual come and stay on your boat for a week or weekend with the actual crew and identify weak or dangerous practises, areas for improvement and work on them as a team. You could even meet up a month before for a boat check-up…which would serve as self preservation for the instructor and peace of mind for the boat owner. If it turned out the owner was hopelessly optimistic about the state of the vessel they could politely be told it wasn’t safe or prudent to set sail. Alternatively a pragmatic list of improvements could be identified with a focus on safety…. “How about updating x, y or z fitting or buying an extra fire extinguisher and I’ll see you in a month with the crew.”

Edit: I’m starting to sound like I’ve had some terrible experience of RYA instruction….quite the opposite and perhaps this sort of family own-boat instruction is commonplace….somebody recommend me a trainer!

 

[goeasy123]

That is a great way to put it and where the real value of instruction would lie. Why not have a friendly and supportive individual come and stay on your boat for a week or weekend with the actual crew and identify weak or dangerous practises, areas for improvement and work on them as a team. You could even meet up a month before for a boat check-up…which would serve as self preservation for the instructor and peace of mind for the boat owner. If it turned out the owner was hopelessly optimistic about the state of the vessel they could politely be told it wasn’t safe or prudent to set sail. Alternatively a pragmatic list of improvements could be identified with a focus on safety…. “How about updating x, y or z fitting or buying an extra fire extinguisher and I’ll see you in a month with the crew.”

Edit: I’m starting to sound like I’ve had some terrible experience of RYA instruction….quite the opposite and perhaps this sort of family own-boat instruction is commonplace….somebody recommend me a trainer!

What a great idea. I'd pay good money for that.

 

[Buck Turgidson]

What a great idea. I'd pay good money for that.

As a commercial prospect you would have to pay a LOT of good money for that.
You are essentially hiring a subject matter expert for 48hrs (weekend) or 168hrs (week).

In my industry (aviation) my rate for a similar task is around $100 per hour.

 

[goeasy123]

As a commercial prospect you would have to pay a LOT of good money for that.
You are essentially hiring a subject matter expert for 48hrs (weekend) or 168hrs (week).

In my industry (aviation) my rate for a similar task is around $100 per hour.

If one gets no value from the RYA offer, at any price, it's expensive. If one-to-one was expensive, but delivered exactly what a student needed it would be excellent value for money.

As it happens in the gilding community (my industry) that's how the training works. The quality of instruction is necessarily very high AND it's all completely free.

 

[Uricanejack]

Own boat tuition follows the same syllabus and standards as any other course. But it can be tailored more precisely to the needs of the trainees.

I don't see how people can do the ICC in 45 minutes. It requires you to demonstrate boat-handling skills, at least basic navigational ability, collision regulations etc. My instructor regarded it as equivalent to Day Skipper; if you could do ICC there was no point in doing Day Skipper. I was out all day and the instructor went into considerable detail; I had to demonstrate the ability to work out course to steer, general situational awareness, sail a triangular course, pick up a buoy and do a MOB. There was a two page list of topics to be covered, and you had to satisfy the instructor that you understood them all. I probably went further in some areas than strictly necessary; the instructor and I were learning from each other! He was interested in how I did the course to steer; I just apply vector triangles, but it was different to the way he did it. And he asked searching questions about my experience.

I’d agree, 45 minutes doesn’t seam right. Sounds a bit like fed paid rubber stamp applied. If both parties went away happy. Oh well. I guess they both got what they wanted.
lve read hear several times, if you do day skipper you automatically qualify for the ICC provided your a membership.
Sound like you contracted for a days instruction and got a days instruction presumably with the qualification of choice.

My intended point, not well articulated. A standard is a standard. How its delivered may vary. Including private tuition. So if you get a private instructor. The instructor should cover the required content. If not they shouldn’t issue the qualification.
Im sure there are lots of instructors who will do it.

I used to for a different organization. Always booked through the sailing school I worked for. I did do a few completely custom instruction gigs. It was usually for a specific requirements. which was generally Boat handling.
I personally preferred the regular format. And I preferred sailing to power boats. It’s also, found it much easier for me to instruct to a standardized content.

As far as sailing is concerned, I really enjoyed my instructor course. It challenged me to do a lot of things, I’d never tried. Which was both interesting and fun. Doing everything entirely by myself, (I’d never single handed). Another aspect I found interesting was the exchange of ideas.
I later did an advanced course, because, I got a really good deal on a left over spot. It was going to an interesting area I had never been, The instructor was very well known as one of the founders of Sail Canada. Again exchanging ideas was a big factor in my enjoyment. Plus I learned some knew stuff.

I have no reason to do a YM other than personal interest. The logistics and time constraints mean it doesn’t work for me right now. It might in the future. If I ever do, I’d go somewhere, I would find interesting, which I am not familiar with. With a well reputed school, on a nice boat. preferably with just a group of ordinary sailors. And a few nice pubs.
In other words, I’d be going on a sailing holiday.

 

[AntarcticPilot]

As a commercial prospect you would have to pay a LOT of good money for that.
You are essentially hiring a subject matter expert for 48hrs (weekend) or 168hrs (week).

In my industry (aviation) my rate for a similar task is around $100 per hour.

A day's own boat training cost me £295, including the ICC certification. I regarded it as good value for money.

My wife did competent crew in a sailing school boat, spread over two weekends, and that was also good value in her situation.

 

[Buck Turgidson]

If one gets no value from the RYA offer, at any price, it's expensive. If one-to-one was expensive, but delivered exactly what a student needed it would be excellent value for money.

As it happens in the gilding community (my industry) that's how the training works. The quality of instruction is necessarily very high AND it's all completely free.

completely free? to club members who pay for the aircraft by the hour and club membership by the year so the Flight Instructor gets hours for free whilst reminding the student to lead with rudder ;-)

If you really want free flight training do what I did and get the tax payer to pay for it in return for a few years at her majesty's service.

I have no problems with RYA training. I've done YM coastal just for personal satisfaction and the quality has been fine overall with as one would expect some very good and some mediocre instruction. The examiners I've met have all been very competent.

I wouldn't for one minute compare my leisure based training on yachts to the training I deliver on a professional basis in commercial aviation.
The standards and regulation are about as different as those between private gliding and commercial aviation.

 

[Uricanejack]

As a commercial prospect you would have to pay a LOT of good money for that.
You are essentially hiring a subject matter expert for 48hrs (weekend) or 168hrs (week).

In my industry (aviation) my rate for a similar task is around $100 per hour.

Ha Ha,
Ball park, If you wanted me to come on my day off, it would be double plus expenses. I suspect it would be a waste of my time. He is not interested in listening. In order to benefit he would need a really good understanding of the basic fundamentals
He would be far better off, taking an RYA course. It would be a lot more cost effective.

The really funny bit, I usually do it for free.

 

[Buck Turgidson]

Ha Ha,
Ball park, If you wanted me to come on my day off, it would be double plus expenses. I suspect it would be a waste of my time. He is not interested in listening. In order to benefit he would need a really good understanding of the basic fundamentals
He would be far better off, taking an RYA course. It would be a lot more cost effective.

The really funny bit, I usually do it for free.

I was guessing at the rate as I don't freelance but 30K will get you a type rating on an Embraer Ejet or 45K for an A220

 

[RJJ]

I agree with those who say that the courses don't match their experience of yachting. I too am a family sailor (or was!), and skills in short-handed sailing would be far more useful than crew management

There's been a few comments along these lines, and I don't believe you can "blame" the RYA for the "issue". We all need to be aware of and constantly improving your own skills, identifying weaknesses and knowing how to fill the gaps if we want to. None of us have sailed all boats and with all possible crews and the RYA can't possibly ensure we do. What it can do is (1) encourage awareness of different boats and different situations - which is on the syllabus from DS (2) encourage self-criticism, and appetite for learning.

If you can't coach yourself to adapt your skills from "the boat and crew you were on a course with" to "the boat and crew you're going to sail with" then you deserve...barely...to be a DS and no more.

If you're an aspiring "family sailor" who will often be sailing short-handed, then it's entirely appropriate to:
- ask your sailing centre in advance of any DS / CS course, or milebuilding experience, if it would be possible to build those skills in, e.g., "how do I moor the boat with only one crew active"
- book your courses and exams with just one other person, obviously expecting to pay the additional bill for the luxury
- ask your instructor for lots of practical advice in the direction you wish to go; any decent instructor should be glad to give you tips such as "here's how you can use a centre spring with just one person stepping ashore"
- after your course/qualification, continue developing and seeking advice

A slightly detailed reply, but at the heart of this is something deeper. You're responsible for your own skills and the situations you apply them to. At every level, the labels the RYA gives you are an indicator of assessment of certain capabilities, that's all.