How could RYA training be improved?

[Black Sheep]

The YM exam was described to me as a qualification in crew management. For that you need to manage a crew, but I still cannot work out why most couples have the male on the helm and the female doing all the physical stuff.

I've heard that too. Which doesn't make it sound very relevant to a single hander.

But it's a bit hard, looking at the RYA website, to work out what would be appropriate. Every so often I think about doing a practical sailing course - but nothing on the RYA site seems to fit. It doesn't help with the extensive muddying of the waters between Day Skipper / Coastal Skipper / Yachtmaster Coastal. I'm sure there's loads I could learn, but if the stated aim of a course is that I can sail in familiar waters by day, when I already feel competent in that, then it isn't clear what I'd be getting for several hundred quid and a week of my time. The info on the RYA site is pretty abysmal, to be honest. But that's probably outside the scope of the OP's four questions.

 

[Sea-Fever]

When you say 'sailor members' I think you mean cruisers. The RYA either does not really understand cruisers or they are commercially motivated to create money making opportunities.... unlike the CA that only represents cruisers. Bringing this back to 'training', maybe the CA should be tasked with developing the training syllabus w.r.t. cruising.

I originally put ‘cruising yachtsmen’ but then changed it to ‘cruising yachtspeople’ to be more inclusive which sounded odd so then finally rested on ‘sailor members’.

In my head I mean the average Joe water user who needs a voice.

 

[dunedin]

When you say 'sailor members' I think you mean cruisers. The RYA either does not really understand cruisers or they are commercially motivated to create money making opportunities.... unlike the CA that only represents cruisers. Bringing this back to 'training', maybe the CA should be tasked with developing the training syllabus w.r.t. cruising.

Here we go again. The RYA has its faults but it does a huge amount for all types of boaters - eg around VAT, RCD etc recently.
The CA also does a lot of good stuff - but I very much doubt that it has the scale or resources to take on something of the scale of the RYA training. Particularly as most who go through the courses seem to think they are generally pretty good. Room for improvements with everything, which is good - but not upheaval of a successful system.

 

[Sea-Fever]

I don’t think the CA could or should take the place of the RYA, but just have a look at the latest 20 or 30 news items under the RYA cruising section. What percentage of RYA activity do you think is actively promoting the interests of UK cruising?

Sorry for the thread drift, this doesn’t answer the OPs questions I’ll shut up.

 

[Laysula]

The YM exam was described to me as a qualification in crew management. For that you need to manage a crew, but I still cannot work out why most couples have the male on the helm and the female doing all the physical stuff.

Absolutely. Er indoors is the helmsman on our boat. It's what works best for us, ever since she struggled to lift a pickup buoy in the Conwy nearly 30 years ago. It'snot just the physical side, I'm a lot more agile than she is.

 

[rotrax]

The above last paragraph is very relevant. The experience First mate and I had wa

The YM exam was described to me as a qualification in crew management. For that you need to manage a crew, but I still cannot work out why most couples have the male on the helm and the female doing all the physical stuff.

Not on our boat!

My strength and rope handling skills do the warps and fenders, First Mate twiddles the wheel, gears and throttle.

Works for us.

Plus, as she is fond of telling me, if anyone is going to crash our boat while mooring it is going to be her!

 

[goeasy123]

It’s only right that I say that those recent courses that I attended were well thought out and delivered and I would consider good value for money with relevant content. It’s my perception of the organisation as a whole that is somewhat marred.

It would be interesting to know of the OPs motivation for the question.

OP here. That's a very good question, Sea-Fever. The short answer is... For us there is has been a significant gap between what the RYA offers and what it could offer in order to better meet the demands of modern day cruisers. I was hoping that respondents, with a good deal more experience than I, would come up with some constructive and far reaching suggestions. For us the gap was filled by the CA, which in 100% cruising focused and has some global focus where the RYA is UK only. We are turning to the mentoring offer from the OCC for the next stage of our adventure because the RYA does not have a viable offer.

My wife and I bought our first boat in 2019 and set sail on a very slow circumnavigation. Prior to that we did a flotilla, a week with a skipper and a week on a bare boat charter. Three weeks total, all in the Ionian. One of us had to get an ICC for the bare boat. The Day Skipper was not relevant for what we wanted to do at that point in time and was inadequate for what we wanted to do next.

We would like to have done a YM before we set off on our circumnavigation, but we didn't have the requisite qualifying experience... which seen arse about face to me. I'd like to do an YM Ocean 'cause we're crossing to the Caribbean early next year, but I can't because I haven't got the qualifying experience.... again, arse about face?

So far we've made it to the Balearic's without significant incident. I'm now doing the YM OS theory. Having 'nursed' an anxious wife and a complex blue water boat around one of the (apparently, so I'm told) most challenging coasts in the world, I'm finding the course lacking in the content that one might consider more important than the RYA content presented. I get the feeling that I am being asked to jump through hoops because they can be tested rather than being coached on the thing that will help me be a better/safer sailor.

I learned that the ability to accurately calculate tidal flow and height is useless and possibly dangerous in many (probably most) of the places where it's important to get it right. The environmental noise trumps the accuracy of the calculations and the only way to navigate safely is to ask for and trust local knowledge.

I also learned that Spanish ferries operate to a 'different version' of the ColRegs than everyone else and that Portuguese fishermen haven't been on an RYA course.... 'cause I haven't seen one yet displaying anything like the prescribes lights.

I've learned that it is essential that know how to check and maintain your own rigging, which means knowing how to climb a mast safely. You also need to know a whole lot more about your drive chain and related emergency procedures than the RYA covers. I.e. how to be prepared for and change a starter motor at sea, on a lea shore, in less that 15 minutes and how to deal with the catastrophic failure of a stern gland so your boat doesn't sink.

I found that knowing how to diagnosed electrical failure under stress and how to do power management are vitally important.

W.r.t. RYA content I'm finding the need to memorize lights, day shapes and sounds a waste of time and brain space because I can read and have a copy of Reeds Skippers Handbook on the nav desk.

I could go on, but I'd like to hear from other how the RYA might improve their offering??

 

[Uricanejack]

I probably shouldn’t comment, I have very little to do with the RYA. My experience with Yachtmaster was decades ago before current system.
Just my impression, The education and knowledge required to get a YM was quite impressive.
At the same time, I would notice, with the majority of YM I sailed with, there was a disconnect between theoretical knowledge and practical ability.
Meanwhile, I sailed with a few YM, who were very good in practice.
The difference was hands on experience. The YMs I respected tended to have a great deal of good practical experience.
The system was changed, decades ago presumably to address this. I have very little personal experience sailing with YM since it changed.
The bottom line, you need both good education and theoretical knowledge and good well mentored practical experience.

I’m much more interested in the resume. Than the test result.

The YM is kind of confusing, on one hand it’s clearly a very high of standard achievement for an amateur sailing qualification. Which is often demonstrated by the comments I see on this site.

On the other hand the YM can also be a commercial certificate. I often scratch my head and wonder. when I read some comments.
If you don’t think the basic’s of navigation and particularly the proper use of radar are fundamentally important to the keeping a watch.
Don’t bother to waste your time and effort trying to pursue.

I do often have prospective new hire. Who have spent time working on yachts. In some way or other. A small proportion have some form of RYA certificate or training. (Probably because I am in North America).
How can I put it? they vary widely.
Some of you may be surprised, I’m more likely to be favourably Impressed by the so called zero to hero.

If I was going to suggest an area for improvement, improve the documentation of experience.
The quality of documentation is becoming more important as the years go by. Audits are currently a way of life. My observation they ain’t getting any less any time soon. Even my Auditer gets Audited.

 

[[70521]]

I've heard that too. Which doesn't make it sound very relevant to a single hander.

I disagree and I usually sail single handedly, but for about three weeks of the year as part of a crew of 24.

Let me explain. A 'syllabus' that we all follow means that I have a structure in what I do as a single hander, anybody can pick up a passage plan and chart and see what the voyage is/was. Other boats know what to expect as we all have the same skill set. As a senior member of a much bigger crew I understand what to do when the skipper gives a command. On my own boat I need to be able to do every job, on the big boat I need to understand how every job is done.

 

[Skylark]

OP here. That's a very good question, Sea-Fever. The short answer is... For us there is has been a significant gap between what the RYA offers and what it could offer in order to better meet the demands of modern day cruisers. I was hoping that respondents, with a good deal more experience than I, would come up with some constructive and far reaching suggestions. For us the gap was filled by the CA, which in 100% cruising focused and has some global focus where the RYA is UK only. We are turning to the mentoring offer from the OCC for the next stage of our adventure because the RYA does not have a viable offer.

My wife and I bought our first boat in 2019 and set sail on a very slow circumnavigation. Prior to that we did a flotilla, a week with a skipper and a week on a bare boat charter. Three weeks total, all in the Ionian. One of us had to get an ICC for the bare boat. The Day Skipper was not relevant for what we wanted to do at that point in time and was inadequate for what we wanted to do next.

We would like to have done a YM before we set off on our circumnavigation, but we didn't have the requisite qualifying experience... which seen arse about face to me. I'd like to do an YM Ocean 'cause we're crossing to the Caribbean early next year, but I can't because I haven't got the qualifying experience.... again, arse about face?

So far we've made it to the Balearic's without significant incident. I'm now doing the YM OS theory. Having 'nursed' an anxious wife and a complex blue water boat around one of the (apparently, so I'm told) most challenging coasts in the world, I'm finding the course lacking in the content that one might consider more important than the RYA content presented. I get the feeling that I am being asked to jump through hoops because they can be tested rather than being coached on the thing that will help me be a better/safer sailor.

I learned that the ability to accurately calculate tidal flow and height is useless and possibly dangerous in many (probably most) of the places where it's important to get it right. The environmental noise trumps the accuracy of the calculations and the only way to navigate safely is to ask for and trust local knowledge.

I also learned that Spanish ferries operate to a 'different version' of the ColRegs than everyone else and that Portuguese fishermen haven't been on an RYA course.... 'cause I haven't seen one yet displaying anything like the prescribes lights.

I've learned that it is essential that know how to check and maintain your own rigging, which means knowing how to climb a mast safely. You also need to know a whole lot more about your drive chain and related emergency procedures than the RYA covers. I.e. how to be prepared for and change a starter motor at sea, on a lea shore, in less that 15 minutes and how to deal with the catastrophic failure of a stern gland so your boat doesn't sink.

I found that knowing how to diagnosed electrical failure under stress and how to do power management are vitally important.

W.r.t. RYA content I'm finding the need to memorize lights, day shapes and sounds a waste of time and brain space because I can read and have a copy of Reeds Skippers Handbook on the nav desk.

I could go on, but I'd like to hear from other how the RYA might improve their offering??

You make some very interesting points. It perhaps would have been better to open with this rather than open the door to rants from those seemingly with a chip on their shoulder for unclear (at least, to me) reasons ?

The Shorebased courses aim to be thought provoking. I always open any course with a brief “the more you put in, the more you’ll get out” One of the main advantages that a classroom course has over online learning is that students can talk and learn from each others experience and that of the instructor.

They aim to provide training and guidance to meet the SOLAS Chapter 5 requirement for Passage Planning. UK citizens are in the very privileged position of not needing any form of demonstrated competence before skippering a vessel at sea. For we recreational sailors, formal, structured learning is entirely voluntary. RYA promotes “education, not legislation”.

I agree that mast climbing, rig maintenance and how to change a clogged fuel filter in a lumpy sea are good skills to have but I’m not sure how they fit into a scheme aimed to provide knowledge and skills to a mainstream majority. The engine course is a good example. An engineer trains for around 5 years. A technician 2-3 years. A one day course to improve awareness and understanding of the system together with basic troubleshooting can only ever be superficial.

The Ocean Shorebased course aims to provide those wanting to cross an ocean with the background knowledge of celestial navigation, routing, passage planning global weather, communications etc. There is nothing to stop you for doing the course.

 

[ctva]

I think the OP would be best with own boat tuition that can be make bespoke to his requirements. No training system can accomodate every individuals requirements. The RYA system for all the diciplines, is regarded as one of the best in the world because of its continual evolving nature of both content and teaching and the fact that EVERY RYA teaching establishment trains the same methods and content.

I always say when training (40ish years in various diciplines at all levels), the RYA method for any task is not the only way but is seen as a solid basis which will always work. It means that when you move around schools or instructors they are always teaching the same thing which is the strength of the RYA method. When personal sailing, I will use a multitude of various techniques for a given task to fit the situation but when teaching, always the RYA method.

 

[Black Sheep]

I disagree and I usually sail single handedly, but for about three weeks of the year as part of a crew of 24.

Let me explain. A 'syllabus' that we all follow means that I have a structure in what I do as a single hander, anybody can pick up a passage plan and chart and see what the voyage is/was. Other boats know what to expect as we all have the same skill set. As a senior member of a much bigger crew I understand what to do when the skipper gives a command. On my own boat I need to be able to do every job, on the big boat I need to understand how every job is done.

I'm struggling to understand your comment here. You said that the YM was described to you "as a qualification in crew management". My comment is that this view doesn't make it sound very relevant to a single hander. Obviously I don't know what it's actually like, as I've never done YM. But it doesn't sound relevant to someone who never manages crew.

Your experiences of being part of a crew of 24 are irrelevant to the way the course sounds to a single-hander.

 

[AntarcticPilot]

I agree with those who say that the courses don't match their experience of yachting. I too am a family sailor (or was!), and skills in short-handed sailing would be far more useful than crew management. When I looked at the Competent Crew handbook, for example, it assumes that the neophyte sailor would be joining a yacht as if it was a completely separate world. In fact, the vast majority of us sail on yachts that are the family holiday; we all know each other and have long-established routines! And husband and wife (or equivalent) are probably a far more common crew than 5 or 6 able-bodied persons. When I did my ICC I was very struck by this - the examiner was willing and able to act as crew and having an active and competent crew member made a great difference to my ability to handle the boat! Things I would have been reluctant to do with my wife alone became easy; things I would never have tried with my wife as crew became possible The courses probably ought to consider and practice how a weak crew can handle the boat. MOB for a person left alone by the MOB would be very useful judging by the numerous threads on that subject!

Of course, own-boat training can overcome these deficiencies by presenting the instructor with the actual situation the trainee will be in! But even then, simply having a competent person present alters the dynamics; you know that there is someone who knows what to do if it all goes pear-shaped!

 

[ctva]

No training course is ever going to replace practical miles, time and experience, and that I think is where people go wrong in their understanding of the difference between knowledge and skill.

 

[capnsensible]

Really? Seems like he attacks anything that doesn't align with his well trodden world view to me. He also attacks RYA customers and suggests their lived experience of the organisation is not true, to the point that he's also arguing the current version of the RYA website doesn't represent their courses and he is in fact more right than they are.

My word. You have a black belt in mis understanding......lots of things. Well done!

 

[capnsensible]

Some food for thought?

Licensed sailing schools are termed as Recognised Training Centres. In order to gain recognition, a rigorous inspection is carried out looking at everything from boats to advertising to safety policies etc etc.

This is repeated annually.

Training standards within school, no matter how large or small are monitored by an appointed Chief Instructor. Who may also be the school Principal. Who takes the rap for any accidents, mistakes or complaints. And ensures that the courses are run correctly. And provide feedback to the RYA. The trading standards authority.

Instructors must firstly qualify by meeting the required standards. Many fail. Subsequently, they are re examined every 5 years. Examiners are thoroughly scrutinised before being licensed to award qualifications that are issued on behalf of the Maritime Coastguard Agency.

This is not back of a fag packet stuff

Most importantly, feedback is continuously requested from every single student on every single course. Complaints are taken seriously and if any RTC has repeated incidences of a similar nature, recognition is withdrawn and the school cannot continue trading under the RYA scheme.

In a similar fashion, if a 'student' continually posts false claims on a public forum, anyone can take issue with that no matter how fragile that person may feel about being invited to review their misunderstanding.

So in my view, there is a lot of constructive criticism on these threads that come up quite regularly. Great. I can only hope though, that I can offer something to counter misunderstanding from my 25 years on the inside. And what a blast that has been.

 

[Motor_Sailor]

No training course is ever going to replace practical miles, time and experience, and that I think is where people go wrong in their understanding of the difference between knowledge and skill.

Of course it's irrefutable that experience is hugely important, but if the experience is simply the repetition of the same poor practice for mile after mile, then surely it has little value. You can watch a lot of youtube videos of people who have sailed tens of thousands of miles including circumnavigations and high latitude ocean crossings but still, some of their techniques make you cringe. I watched one episode of a couple who had been round the world but, had clearly not met a lot of Cardinal Marks. They were leaving the Kourou river (IIRC) in French Guyana where a solitary western cardinal mark had been used to warn of a rock to the east of the main channel out. They stared at it quizzically before dismissing it as 'an oddity' and leaving it to their port side. But somehow they didn't hit the Roche Ariane but another chunk of 'experience' did nothing to add to their competence.

For experiential education to work there has to be some effective review and evaluation process. Really hard when you sail alone or with the same small group of people who are all 'used' to each other, unless the learning opportunity becomes an epic where it's obvious 'something' has gone wrong. This is my problem with the RYA training model - the 'passing' of the Yachtmaster qualification often seems to signal that 'you are competent'. You can say 'this is only the start' but the format and the awarding of certificates etc, shouts the opposite.

 

[capnsensible]

Of course it's irrefutable that experience is hugely important, but if the experience is simply the repetition of the same poor practice for mile after mile, then surely it has little value. You can watch a lot of youtube videos of people who have sailed tens of thousands of miles including circumnavigations and high latitude ocean crossings but still, some of their techniques make you cringe. I watched one episode of a couple who had been round the world but, had clearly not met a lot of Cardinal Marks. They were leaving the Kourou river (IIRC) in French Guyana where a solitary western cardinal mark had been used to warn of a rock to the east of the main channel out. They stared at it quizzically before dismissing it as 'an oddity' and leaving it to their port side. But somehow they didn't hit the Roche Ariane but another chunk of 'experience' did nothing to add to their competence.

For experiential education to work there has to be some effective review and evaluation process. Really hard when you sail alone or with the same small group of people who are all 'used' to each other, unless the learning opportunity becomes an epic where it's obvious 'something' has gone wrong. This is my problem with the RYA training model - the 'passing' of the Yachtmaster qualification often seems to signal that 'you are competent'. You can say 'this is only the start' but the format and the awarding of certificates etc, shouts the opposite.

Great advert for people getting proper training.

Worth looking too at the experience required prior to taking a Yachtmaster exam....

 

[ctva]

Of course it's irrefutable that experience is hugely important, but if the experience is simply the repetition of the same poor practice for mile after mile, then surely it has little value. You can watch a lot of youtube videos of people who have sailed tens of thousands of miles including circumnavigations and high latitude ocean crossings but still, some of their techniques make you cringe. I watched one episode of a couple who had been round the world but, had clearly not met a lot of Cardinal Marks. They were leaving the Kourou river (IIRC) in French Guyana where a solitary western cardinal mark had been used to warn of a rock to the east of the main channel out. They stared at it quizzically before dismissing it as 'an oddity' and leaving it to their port side. But somehow they didn't hit the Roche Ariane but another chunk of 'experience' did nothing to add to their competence.

For experiential education to work there has to be some effective review and evaluation process. Really hard when you sail alone or with the same small group of people who are all 'used' to each other, unless the learning opportunity becomes an epic where it's obvious 'something' has gone wrong. This is my problem with the RYA training model - the 'passing' of the Yachtmaster qualification often seems to signal that 'you are competent'. You can say 'this is only the start' but the format and the awarding of certificates etc, shouts the opposite.

To gain experience you have to have an open mind and eyes.

Competent is not skillfull.

As the old saying goes, you can lead a horse to water...

 

[Daydream believer]

My ICC practical exam lasted about 45/60 minutes. I had just done the theory & got one question wrong. When he asked me about it I realised the error & corrected it. We ( the examiner & I) went aboard the training Sigma 33, motored out of Bradwell marina, hoisted sails & sailed for about 15 minutes. When he was about to hoist the jib I pointed out that he had threadled the jib sheets wrongly, which I am not sure went down well. We did a heave too a gybe & a couple of tacks & he said, " This is a waste of time, you know how to handle a boat. Let's go back" I docked the boat. At the berth he said he would be leaving for a couple of minutes, would I tie up in the correct manner. Oddly enough !!! the springs & bow lines were the wrong way round so I swopped them & when he came back he said " Congratulations, you can call that a pass". So long lessons etc to pass an ICC are not necessary if one has done a bit of sailing ( well 30 years at that time) It must be the easiest sailing cert to obtain. Either that or the examiner was being lazy.