How could RYA training be improved?

lustyd said:
No, I showed how the RYA descibe them (basically the same) and described my lived experience as a customer (they were IDENTICAL).

If you're not even willing to consider feedback then you should probably leave the thread. If someone in my team represented our organisation like this on a public forum they'd be speaking to HR.
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Surely the difference between them is the standard that it achieved...? I'm not sure how you make 2 courses about skippering yachts massively different, other than by the differing outcome levels? You're still sailing the same boat on largely the same water and the weather you get is just luck.

For example, was the MOB done to a higher (under sail) standard? Were the berths selected for coming alongside less straightforward? Were the passages selected a little more complicated in execution - maybe going to places that are not all tide for example?

You may not actually notice this of course, as your own skill level and experience rose....

When all's said and done, the only thing that really separates the skill level of a newly qualified DS to a newly qualified YM is the size of their comfort zone and the slickness that their manoeuvres are done with. Things that are outside a new DS's comfort zone, for example getting off a berth with 30kts pinning you on, or sailing onto a mooring buoy, or entering a slightly complicated harbour at night ought to be within the YM's comfort zone.
The DS will get away with some slightly bumpy landings in coming alongside that the YM would not, will get away with passage planning that is much more "buoy hopping" will be expected to take decisions not to sail when the YM would be expected to sail.

The coastal skipper course completion is somewhere in between.
 
I've always thought that the entry requirements regarding previous sailing experience are a little slack. But people need to be encouraged to progress.
 
capnsensible seems to be someone that is open to suggestion and might be able to influence the RYA. So rather than snipe at the target some constructive and actionable answers to these original questions might turn out to be highly productive:

What works well?
What could be improved?
What could be omitted or changed?
What's missing?
 
I only really have experience of the specialist courses, but those I have attended were good. However, I have been interested to see that people's experience of the Diesel engine course has often varied widely from mine. Mione was excellent, taught by a hands-on engineer who obviously understood his material very well, and was able to explain it clearly, with many pieces of actual engines and components in the classroom, and down-to-earth, practical suggestions about "what to do if...". Others have described bare-bones, by the book teaching with little practical material. In the sailing courses, I have heard on these fora of completely incorrect explanations being given about phenomena such as the Earth's magnetic field. The conclusion I came to is that the RYA sets good syllabuses, but is not so good at ensuring that the teaching standard is uniformly high, or that instructors have wider understanding of the material they are teaching. Perhaps a greater investment into the oversight of courses is needed? I recognize that there is oversight, but given criticisms of courses on here, I wonder if it is sufficient?
 
flaming said:
Can't agree with that. The difference in what is expected of a coastal skipper (now called Yachtmaster Coastal) and a Day skipper is pretty big I think. A lot more skills are required to be demonstrated. MOB under sail etc.

The one thing that I found odd going through the DS - CS - YM path was how little emphasis was placed on actual sailing ability, as distinct to ability to manoeuvred a boat or navigate it.

For example, on my YM exam we were running downwind in 25-30 knots of breeze. The examiner invited me to step below to talk through my prepared passage plan. This left 2 other candidates on deck. After a few minutes they called down and asked if I could be allowed to come back on deck to helm, as neither of them felt up to the task. They both passed, whilst demonstrating (to me at least) that they were not comfortable with actually helming a boat in what I considered fairly normal conditions.
They also both had fairly basic sail trimming skills, even by cruising standards, and were not doing things like adjusting sheet leads or kicker tension at all.
Both of them could clearly navigate well, better than me for sure, and both were good at the set manoeuvres, coming alongside, MOB etc and had pretty good man management skills. But neither were really all that good at actually sailing.

I'm not suggesting that all YM candidates need to be hotshot racing sailors, but really at no point past DS was sail trim or helming technique ever really mentioned. Everything was about nav and manoeuvres.
And of course it's more than possible to get to YM without ever having flown a spinnaker, which I feel is a mistake.
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Funny you say that.... a close friend of mine did Yachtmaster (would now be called Yachtmaster Offshore) about 20 years ago and there was no wind for the whole assessment time so they literally never turned the engine off while underway! The whole thing was performed under motor! He still passed with flying colours.

(edited to add, he is a competent sailor and races regularly)!
 
flaming said:
Surely the difference between them is the standard that it achieved
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Exactly this. Since they are not qualifications it therefore stands to reason that only one practical course is necessary. If people want to take it multiple times that’s on them
 
goeasy123 said:
capnsensible seems to be someone that is open to suggestion
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Really? Seems like he attacks anything that doesn't align with his well trodden world view to me. He also attacks RYA customers and suggests their lived experience of the organisation is not true, to the point that he's also arguing the current version of the RYA website doesn't represent their courses and he is in fact more right than they are.
 
AntarcticPilot said:
The conclusion I came to is that the RYA sets good syllabuses, but is not so good at ensuring that the teaching standard is uniformly high, or that instructors have wider understanding of the material they are teaching. Perhaps a greater investment into the oversight of courses is needed? I recognize that there is oversight, but given criticisms of courses on here, I wonder if it is sufficient?
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Perhaps the concentration should not so much on getting some teachers with higher standards but more one of getting ALL teachers above a MINIMUM standard. That way there is a better chance of the student reaching the level required. I think that we can agree that when at school we had good teachers & bad ones. It was easier for the education system to monitor teachers. It is a bit harder for the RYA to undertake a similar exercise as often as they would probably like.

As for criticisms I would probably dismiss many. There will always be someone who will be full of adverse comment. But ask if they have actually completed the course, or if they have, if they were successful & then ask yourself the reason for their objections. A lot are just people with some "anti" chip on their shoulder for no real reason whatsoever, other than being "grumpy old men". Bit like the " never have a fat arsed yacht" brigade. Never sailed one & have no idea , but full of criticism.

It is very likely that the odd one or two will slip through the net & gain a pass when perhaps in different conditions or with a different examiner they might not have passed. Then when out on the water they act in a moment of brain fade. That causes much more criticism than is really necessary. I will admit to moments of total idiocy. If anyone saw me sail up the sea wall at Burnham years ago will wonder how I was ever allowed to be in a boat. But it happens. It is no reason to decry the value of the RYA training regimes. Sure they can always be improved & i am sure that the RYA have it in mind.

The system works, There is room for improvement, but I for one would love to have that YM certificate (practical), even though the training school told me I did not need it.
 
Daydream believer said:
getting ALL teachers above a MINIMUM standard
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I think the standard of instructors has been excellent on all of my RYA stuff including the teenage ones in Greece at Sunsail's resort. I'm sure there must be some bad apples but they must be few and far between as I've trained with and sailed with lots of them over the years
 
What works well? The on-the-water practical instruction has been most valuable for me.

What could be improved? However, it has been variable. I agree with ArcticPilot's observation. More attention should be paid to QAing the teaching staff. Unlike lustyd's experience mine has been about 50/50.

What could be omitted or changed? Anything that can be written down and easily referenced should be omitted. E.g. lights, shape, sounds and radio procedures. Anything that can be done to a check list should not be expected as a memory test.

What's missing? I'd like to see some structure to the training progression that equips new sailors to do the kind of sailing that's required for the YM Offshore and Ocean qualifying experience. In other words, in addition to Laysula's comment... I might like to buy a boat with my wife, hope across the Channel and spend a couple of years short hopping down the EU Atlantic coast, through the Straits of Gib and around the Balearic's. The YM Coastal or Offshore course might be ideal preparation, but we can't do those because we haven't got the qualifying experience.
 
Well done Daydream believer, admitting your Burnham sea wall mishap, I wonder how many on this forum can honestly say they have never ‘cocked up’ at some point, even the professionals sometimes get it wrong, the list of damaged naval vessels from submarines to destroyers resulting from various errors is quite extensive.
I gained my YM certificate of competence about 40 years ago, but have to admit I am still regrettably not immune to the occasional error. (Last season managed to wrap the pick-up line of my mooring around one of the bilge keels when returning to my mooring)
 
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Perhaps a bit less "by the book" and more common sense.
At 16 years, my son took a Dinghy Instructors course. He had to re-do the MOB part despite being the only one to retrieve the dummy. He didn't use the approved system. I said if I fell overboard he had my permission to do it wrong. 30 years later my granddaughter did the same course and said "grandpa, you and Uncle Simon have been doing it all wrong".
 
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Laysula said:
One thing that I do see, is students being taught to berth on pontoons.. This seems to almost always involve the full crew in the operation. Given that most boats seem to be crewed by husband and wife surely it would be better to do this bit of instruction in pairs? ie one helm and one crew.
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That is an excellent point. A lot of the courses do seem to be based on having lots of spare hands around to do everything.
Clearly the ability to care for and lead a crew is one important skill. But operating a boat safely short handed is as important, and for many needed in their own boating, but seems to get little or no emphasis.
 
Laysula said:
One thing that I do see, is students being taught to berth on pontoons.. This seems to almost always involve the full crew in the operation. Given that most boats seem to be crewed by husband and wife surely it would be better to do this bit of instruction in pairs? ie one helm and one crew.
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The YM exam was described to me as a qualification in crew management. For that you need to manage a crew, but I still cannot work out why most couples have the male on the helm and the female doing all the physical stuff.
 
I haven’t had much experience, a few watersport courses when I was younger, a shore based day skipper and a VHF course more recently. I may do the DS practical but only to obtain the ICC.

What I do have is a perception of the RYA that may or may not be accurate but it affects the likelihood of my pursuit of further qualifications.

I think the RYA would do well to be a more vocal/visible advocate for sailors in a way that the CA seem to be. When someone mentions the RYA I think about being assessed and judged first and foremost. Not assisted or supported. Where are the RYA when I need my anchorage options protected? They’re planting seagrass all over them and jumping in to bed with organisations that truly despise gin swilling boat owners.

I wonder if the RYA are conflicted about a potential UK legal requirement to be qualified….on one hand it would secure them many paying students, on the other they just become the DVLA of the seas.

In my view the RYA should be looking to distance themselves from that position, and genuinely root for their sailor members. I would be much more amenable to their judgement if they did
 
It’s only right that I say that those recent courses that I attended were well thought out and delivered and I would consider good value for money with relevant content. It’s my perception of the organisation as a whole that is somewhat marred.

It would be interesting to know of the OPs motivation for the question.
 
Sea-Fever said:
I haven’t had much experience, a few watersport courses when I was younger, a shore based day skipper and a VHF course more recently. I may do the DS practical but only to obtain the ICC.

What I do have is a perception of the RYA that may or may not be accurate but it affects the likelihood of my pursuit of further qualifications.

I think the RYA would do well to be a more vocal/visible advocate for sailors in a way that the CA seem to be. When someone mentions the RYA I think about being assessed and judged first and foremost. Not assisted or supported. Where are the RYA when I need my anchorage options protected? They’re planting seagrass all over them and jumping in to bed with organisations that truly despise gin swilling boat owners.

I wonder if the RYA are conflicted about a potential UK legal requirement to be qualified….on one hand it would secure them many paying students, on the other they just become the DVLA of the seas.

In my view the RYA should be looking to distance themselves from that position, and genuinely root for their sailor members. I would be much more amenable to their judgement if they did
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When you say 'sailor members' I think you mean cruisers. The RYA either does not really understand cruisers or they are commercially motivated to create money making opportunities.... unlike the CA that only represents cruisers. Bringing this back to 'training', maybe the CA should be tasked with developing the training syllabus w.r.t. cruising.
 
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