Hove to, bad weather - Not under command?

[Cruiser2B]

[ QUOTE ]
Jeez this is hard work

"The term "vessel not under command" means a vessel which through some exceptional circumstance is unable to maneuver as required by these Rules and is therefore unable to keep out of the way of another vessel. "

Exceptional circumstances does not include falling asleep! Or all the merchant ships would claim exemption in collisions. "sorry, I fell asleep, so we were not under command!"

[/ QUOTE ]

I've never implied otherwise - this is what I said: ""Not under command" doesn't mean the captain is indisposed - it means the the rudder and/or engines or equivalent are not answering their commands."

Apparently we're on the same side in this argument.

 

[Cruiser2B]

[ QUOTE ]
You seem to be suggesting that the rules were written in random order i.e. NUC, Restricted etc. Rather in a logical order with NUC being highest because it can't get out of the way.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's quite a leap, Dave. I'll say this again: NUC is not the highest! Stuck throttle is NUC - can still steer. Stuck rudder is NUC, can still stop/reverse engine. RAM vessels include: dredgers, cable-layers and buoy tenders - do you think they can get out of the way, when they're attached to the sea-bed?? Both NUC and RAM vessels can have varying degress of manoeuvrability - but that can't be determined by the lights or dayshapes. CBD means the vessel is SEVERELY restricted in its ability to deviate from its course due specifically to the proximity of dangerous shallows which would prevent the required course alteration to stbd. Although the rules state that NUC and RAM vessels are not required to avoid impeding a CBD vessel, there is no rule stating that a CBD vessel shall get out of the way of NUC or RAM vessels. You need to read between the lines, or better yet, invest in one of the many excellent guides to the Rules; and of course participate in Rules discussions such as this, to really appreciate the meaning of the Rules. Essentially, any hampered vessel, in a risk of collision, with any other hampered vessel must be prepared to take whatever actions it can to avoid a collision. Any fool who believes he's untouchable 'cos he's got his NUC signals hoisted, is seriously deluding himself.

Kevin

 

[Woodlouse]

Re: CBD - Give way vessel??

[ QUOTE ]
"Constrained by draught has to give way to fishing vessels and sailing vessels."

I'd like to see you try that in the Solent!

Southampton Harbour Master & QHM would string you up by your 'b----cks'!
Just imagine one of those 300m container vessels grounding across the Thorn Channel because you expect him to be 'give way vessel'.

Your having a laugh!

[/ QUOTE ]
There are bylaws in the Solent that override the Colregs regarding who can get in the way of the shipping. So not a good example. /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

 

[Cruiser2B]

[ QUOTE ]
answer - seasnake with 2 bridge watchkeeper officers cross trained to do basic engine maintenance, alarm goes off or set maintenance period requires engine attention, seasnake stops, puts up NUC lights/shapes, fixes problem/does maintenance, takes down NUC's and proceeds on its way...

- but what do you suggest singlehanders should do when they need a catnap, or a cuppa, or a nosh - cos to remain legal they cant just 'pop down'

[/ QUOTE ]

Did the MCA(DOT) state that the seasnakes could go without a lookout? If the engines are down, then they are NUC; watchkeeper/engineer goes down to fix problem, lookout stays on watch, no problem.

Singlehanders should be prepared to do all their noshing, peeing, etc from where they can maintain a lookout. Sleeping is out of the question - quite simply it's illegal. I thought the Irish authorities had made some noise about prosecuting offending single-handers - has anything ever come of that?

 

[landaftaf]

[ QUOTE ]
lookout stays on

[/ QUOTE ]

and the cheque is in the post, I will phone you back etc ........



lets be honest


[ QUOTE ]
Singlehanders should be prepared to do all their noshing, peeing, etc from where they can maintain a lookout. Sleeping is out of the question

[/ QUOTE ]


whats the final one ............. I wont ...... um ......... in your mouth

yup /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[Cruiser2B]

I get your point - just because it's illegal, doesn't mean it's not done. Not everyone obeys the speed limit - doesn't make speeding any less illegal. You'll probably get away with it and it won't cause any grief --- unless you prang.

 

[oldharry]

I always understood that a vessel was deemed 'under way' unless it was secured to something such as a dock, or the seabed. As a regular single hander myself, I never presumed that any other vessel could or should be expected to make any distinction about the fact I may be tired, brewing coffee, having a pee, or a kip etc. I do heave to on passage from time to time to get things done, or have a break, but AFAIC the boat is still technically 'under way' and I must continue to keep an eye on things.

IMHO it is one of those situations where it is unsafe to assume other boats will realise I am doing anything different to them, or that they will make allowances for it. Theres too much at stake!

 

[bobgoode]

NUC ... not able to comply with the regs for example due to steering failure. Hove to you can comply... simply sheet your sails to draw again therefore you are underway, but not making way. You must still obey the col regs so better to heave to on starboard tack

 

[DavenHelen]

[ QUOTE ]
I'll say this again: NUC is not the highest! Stuck throttle is NUC - can still steer. Stuck rudder is NUC, can still stop/reverse engine.

[/ QUOTE ]

NUC is " a vessel which through some exceptional circumstance is unable to maneuver as required by these Rules and is therefore unable to keep out of the way of another vessel. "

The key is unable to maneuver as required....as opposed to Restricted in ability to maneuver.... i.e. Can't Maneuver as opposed to can with some effort. I would still view as an order of precedence.

 

[alant]

Who\'s bigger?

Correct.
NUC - "(Rule 3 (f)) a vessel which through some exceptional circumstance is unable to maneuver as required by these Rules and is therefore unable to keep out of the way of another vessel. "

Also,
"A vessel NUC cannot get out of your way. She may be stopped, but she may be making way. If stopped, she may be drifting to leeward."

Is this a yacht 'hove to'?
A yacht 'hove to', is making way, can maneouvre, so cannot declare itself NUC surely.

"Rule 3 (g)
Vessel 'restricted in her ability to manoeuvre' means a vessel which from the nature of her work is restricted in her ability to manoeuvre as required by these Rules and is therefore unable to keep out of the way of another vessel."

Again, does this really describe a yacht 'hove to'?

"Rule 3 (h)
'vessel constrained by her draught' means a power-driven vessel which, because of her draught in relation to her available depth and width of navigable water, is severely restricted in her ability to deviate from the course she is following."

What are the chances of such a vessel being able to undertake any emergency stop, in order to 'give way' to a 'hove to' yacht, even with tugs? If it was the QM2, with obviously more lives at risk than the few in a yacht, which decision would you take as the Master?
It would surely be the yacht's responsibility to advise the appropriate nearest controlling authority (such as Southampton VTS or QHM or Joburg Traffic) and/or issue a 'securite', so that this event is unlikely.

At the end of the day, if its bigger or harder, best to avoid than force the issue if possible.

 

[Cruiser2B]

[ QUOTE ]
Can't Maneuver as opposed to can with some effort. I would still view as an order of precedence.

[/ QUOTE ]

I said "read between the lines" not "write between the lines". You can't make up rules to suit yourself. Since you're fond of quotes, I'll offer this passage from Cockcroft: "Some vessels that have been considered 'not under command' under previous regulations will now be excluded from this category as the definition includes the phrase 'which through some exceptional circumstances'. Vessels engaged in difficult towing operations and other vessels which from the nature of their work are unable to manoeuvre as required by the Rules are now to be considered as 'vessels restricted in their ability to manoeuvre'. Such vessels are given the same degree of privilege as vessels not under command but they show different lights and shapes."

K