Hot Liquid: the response

[fireball]

From RNLI email subject line ...

Our lifesaving sale starts today. Up to 40% off!

Should HL perhaps step up, offer to contribute the cost of the rescue - and ask for the 40% discount to be retrospective?! [/joke - for those to anal to realise that it is one]

 

[Juggler7823]

Mate?

One point that has not been mentioned or discussed is that of the yacht needing an experienced mate in its coding requirements. The following is a paragraph from the Myth of Malham MAIB report for the yacht Hot Vortex. I assume that the coding requirements were the same for Hot Liquid.

"Liquid Vortex was certified under the Code of Practice for the Construction, Machinery, Equipment, Stability, Operation and Examination of Sailing Vessels of up to 24m load line length, in commercial use and which do not carry more than 12 passengers (the Blue Code). The yacht was allowed to operate up to 60 nautical miles from a safe haven provided a skipper holding a commercially endorsed RYA Yachtmaster Offshore CoC and second experienced person were on board."

Was there a "second experienced person aboard"? If so what were his views about setting out and did he take any part in the helming and decision making?

 

[Judders]

Was there a "second experienced person aboard"? If so what were his views about setting out and did he take any part in the helming and decision making?

Ah, that would explain why they are so keen to mention the DS in there statement...

 

[fireball]

The yacht was allowed to operate up to 60 nautical miles from a safe haven provided a skipper holding a commercially endorsed RYA Yachtmaster Offshore CoC and second experienced person were on board."

Was there a "second experienced person aboard"? If so what were his views about setting out and did he take any part in the helming and decision making?

From what I've read on here and news reports - so may not be complete - is that the next most experienced (in terms of RYA certification) person onboard was a DS who hadn't sailed for 3 years ... and subsequently refused to helm as the boat was unmanageable.

I know from personal experience that you cannot be in two places at once - ie a tricky berth where you want the most experienced person on the wheel - but if that's the same person who is best to do the tie off it can make life interesting - little "problems" like that are rarely life threatening though.

It does make you question the thought process behind proceeding - you're setting out into a strong wind with more forecast, you have crew whose experience may or may not be sufficient - so what would happen if the skipper was the person incapacitated?
I know you can't plan for every eventuality - but incapacity of the skipper is a primary concern and perhaps shouldn't be the only person onboard capable of making decisions? Is that why there is a requirement for a second "experienced" person onboard ... is there a minimum requirement for that experience?

 

[newman123]

Goog point

Ah, that would explain why they are so keen to mention the DS in there statement...

I imagine that I would have been considered to be the second most experienced person as I own a yacht and have day skipper but I made it perfectly clear before we left that I'd sailed very little in the last three years and didn't feel that I was experienced.

 

[Judders]

Well I'd be speculating if I pondered outloud that IF the coding requires a first mate and you have become the de facto first mate and yet are being charged for the position...

Oh it doens't bare thinking about. All my prejudices about paying to sail do give me a rather jaundiced view I am afraid, though recent incidents (and not just those involving Hot Liquid) do appear to reinforce my point.

 

[rib]

is there a requirement for a 2nd person(compulsory i mean) ?

 

[rib]

judders.how do peeps who cant afford a boat go sailing then in your world

 

[marklucas]

is there a requirement for a 2nd person(compulsory i mean) ?

No.

 

[newman123]

Concerned...

Well I'd be speculating if I pondered outloud that IF the coding requires a first mate and you have become the de facto first mate and yet are being charged for the position...

Oh it doens't bare thinking about. All my prejudices about paying to sail do give me a rather jaundiced view I am afraid, though recent incidents (and not just those involving Hot Liquid) do appear to reinforce my point.

I hadn't thought of it that way, but I will certainly be giving a full account to the MAIB. In my opinion there were so many issues which will need to be examined.

 

[rib]

so why do peeps keep going on about it

 

[Judders]

judders.how do peeps who cant afford a boat go sailing then in your world

There are plenty of owners out there who need crew and plenty of clubs to get them together. All without a profit motive.

 

[rib]

oh yea

 

[Judders]

I hadn't thought of it that way, but I will certainly be giving a full account to the MAIB. In my opinion there were so many issues which will need to be examined.

That said, I am surprised the coding has such a requirement and I am only taking it froma post on this forum, so do not take it as gospel.

 

[shaunksb]

I imagine that I would have been considered to be the second most experienced person as I own a yacht and have day skipper but I made it perfectly clear before we left that I'd sailed very little in the last three years and didn't feel that I was experienced.

Thank you for your contributions.

I was just about to wade in with a bit of a defence for Hot Liquid in respect of there being nothing too wrong with heading out with a poor forcast for "later" if conditions are manageable now on a "suck it and see" basis if a plan B is available.

i set off on a training boat once in a F6 increasing F8 heading around Carmel Head (Ooooop north!) once and the crew were "up for it" but the skipper asked for constant feedback and eventually decided to head for a bolthole.

It sounds like everybody but the skipper wanted to call it a day on your boat.

Did he not ask for/listen to opinions from the crew at all?



____________

 

[Team Response]

Could it be that the "crew" had paied for their 60 mile Yachtmaster passage and Brighton is not 60 miles from Southampton! did they all get the log book signed of one wonders? I was sailing out of Plymouth at new year and made sure was tied to a pontoon Monday evening, its a shame that money is more important to some companys than crew safety.

 

[Twister_Ken]

judders.how do peeps who cant afford a boat go sailing then in your world

Crew on someone else's boat. I did it for 20-something years. It's called joining the OPYC.

 

[Judders]

its a shame that money is more important to some companys than crew safety.

It seems to me that this is a little like the banking crisis. The real risk is not taken by the people making the profit.

 

[npf1]

from the other thread on this topic, one of the paying crew for this trip owns a largish (47ft) yacht.

 

[Talulah]

is there a requirement for a 2nd person(compulsory i mean) ?

The second experienced person is often over looked.
You'll often see Sailing Schools offering cross-channel trips.
The trip may be a weekend trip to Cherbourg or back or it may be longer. i.e. a seven day cruise to the Channel Islands and back where you do your comp crew cert during the holiday.
The boat will be filled with paying clients and more often than not you'll find someone on board who has 'experience' but may not be 'experienced'. I suspect it's chance that a lot of sailing school ends up with a second experienced person on board and not by planning. However, there may be schools who look at the experience level on board for these type of trips and if they are all novices stick another experienced person on board FOC due to a risk assessment.
The RYA is pretty good at issuing guidance notes to sailing schools and as a result of this latest incident they may well bring this subject back up. In effect reminding schools that a second experienced person is a requirement when undertaking this type of venture. If one of the clients isn't experienced than the school must put a second experienced person on board or cancel the trip if no such experienced person is available.