Hot Liquid, follow-up non-contentious question

[Pye_End]

I still think Boulogne would have been an option if the decision was taken early enough, off Beachy Head say, but it would of course be dependent on the actual wind direction.

The wind went pretty quiet at lunchtime (after the hail), and would have been much more manageable to sail in.

I would have thought that if the conditions were manageable off South Foreland then once off Deal they should be fairly safe. All they would have needed to manage was a beam reach. However if this did not look sensible then a slower passage, and proceed south of the Goodwins till the wind moderated may have been the safest option. The land is more likely to get you than the sea.

Dungeoness might have been flatter with a good tide running hard past, but suspect the refraction would have been tough once you had slack water or wind against tide. There would have been nothing to lose for them to have had a look to see, but a 'plan B' always looked pretty hard for this particular passage.

 

[alant]

The wind went pretty quiet at lunchtime (after the hail), and would have been much more manageable to sail in.

I would have thought that if the conditions were manageable off South Foreland then once off Deal they should be fairly safe. All they would have needed to manage was a beam reach. However if this did not look sensible then a slower passage, and proceed south of the Goodwins till the wind moderated may have been the safest option. The land is more likely to get you than the sea.

Dungeoness might have been flatter with a good tide running hard past, but suspect the refraction would have been tough once you had slack water or wind against tide. There would have been nothing to lose for them to have had a look to see, but a 'plan B' always looked pretty hard for this particular passage.

"needed to manage was a beam reach. However if this did not look sensible then a slower passage, and proceed south of the Goodwins till the wind moderated may have been the safest option."

If in your opinion as a 'local sailor', the passage off Deal/west of the Goodwins, should be "once off Deal they should be fairly safe", now changed to untenable, why would "south of the Goodwins" have been a good shout, with a crew who were next to totally whacked?

Yes, no land to hit perhaps, but once out of the possible lee, they would then be hit with the full blow & the seas would still be heaving should the wind have possibly dropped.

PS, last time I was in that area with such conditions, it took over 48hrs for conditions to slacken, allowing us to proceed.

 

[Pye_End]

If in your opinion as a 'local sailor', the passage off Deal/west of the Goodwins, should be "once off Deal they should be fairly safe", now changed to untenable, why would "south of the Goodwins" have been a good shout, with a crew who were next to totally whacked?

Yes, no land to hit perhaps, but once out of the possible lee, they would then be hit with the full blow & the seas would still be heaving should the wind have possibly dropped.

It is the one biggest problem with this particular trip - there are very few options.

I have no idea if they would have been able to make sufficient heading once round South Foreland to be able to get in the lee of Deal. As Guapa said on a different thread, if the weather is dire, the last thing you want to do is put yourself with the Goodwins as a lee shore. Ramsgate through one of the inshore routes would have carried its risks in that wind, even though the water was a flatter. Perhaps anchoring as far down as Deal would have been possible? At least if that plan went wrong you could still get out.

Problem with Boulogne is that it is a lee shore, and even once inside the outer harbour it would not have been very easy.

So for me, out to sea may have been the only safe option left open to them, and this would have been the most fundamental reason as to why I would never have set off on this trip in the first place!


What would you have done once round Dungeoness with a failing crew?

 

[alant]

It is the one biggest problem with this particular trip - there are very few options.

I have no idea if they would have been able to make sufficient heading once round South Foreland to be able to get in the lee of Deal. As Guapa said on a different thread, if the weather is dire, the last thing you want to do is put yourself with the Goodwins as a lee shore. Ramsgate through one of the inshore routes would have carried its risks in that wind, even though the water was a flatter. Perhaps anchoring as far down as Deal would have been possible? At least if that plan went wrong you could still get out.

Problem with Boulogne is that it is a lee shore, and even once inside the outer harbour it would not have been very easy.

So for me, out to sea may have been the only safe option left open to them, and this would have been the most fundamental reason as to why I would never have set off on this trip in the first place!


What would you have done once round Dungeoness with a failing crew?

"What would you have done once round Dungeoness with a failing crew?"

I wouldn't have been there in the first place!

 

[Searush]

"What would you have done once round Dungeoness with a failing crew?"

I wouldn't have been there in the first place!

That's the key lesson for me too, if there isn't a good safe "plan B", then you do NOT take any risks whatsoever with plan A. So if a big blow is forecast & there is no way out if it starts to go wrong - you just don't go.

If there is an easy safe option when it blows up, fine, have a go & be prepared to pull out as & when. But why take risks with no way out?

 

[Tidewaiter2]

Pye- End- put me right

"What would you have done once round Dungeoness with a failing crew?"

I wouldn't have been there in the first place!

+1.
We have also just missed the tide into Rye, walked hook out, and waited for water to come back in sideways rain and wind F6+ in a Redfox just orf the training walls.
Given the weather, and assuming HL(fin keeler???) unlike us could not take ground
-hook in round the RYE Safewater bouy, or up under the cliffs to the west, where-ever there was enough water to and from LW-yep, I know that whole bay dries, but better than cracking on into the Chops of the Channel.
This assumes the YMiC could actually work a tidal curve and there was an adequate anchor n scope. Any shelter to weather is better than 0, a chance to get some crash n scran????
2 hours crash EVEN at 45% makes

 

[Pye_End]

Pye- End- put me right

Unlikely!

Ken's idea of Dungeness, however uncomfortable, might have been the safest option once they had got that far. Surely better to heave ho on a rolly polly anchorage than to keep plugging on.

Do we know the exact wind direction? Would the Rye anchorage have been practical in anything other than plenty of north in it? Almanac says if it is SW go for Dungeness, and if N'ly then Rye fairway buoy. Winds greater than F6 SE to SW 'needs care'!

 

[alant]

Unlikely!

Ken's idea of Dungeness, however uncomfortable, might have been the safest option once they had got that far. Surely better to heave ho on a rolly polly anchorage than to keep plugging on.

Do we know the exact wind direction? Would the Rye anchorage have been practical in anything other than plenty of north in it? Almanac says if it is SW go for Dungeness, and if N'ly then Rye fairway buoy. Winds greater than F6 SE to SW 'needs care'!

How much shelter in a F10?

Don't think there's much high ground on that promentory to tuck behind, unless you include the Power Station.

 

[Twister_Ken]

How much shelter in a F10?

Don't think there's much high ground on that promentory to tuck behind, unless you include the Power Station.

No, but it is - presumably - some form of breakwater.

 

[Kukri]

It's really not bad; as I said before you want to be about two miles north of the point and really close in to the beach, which shelves gradually. The wind doesn't matter half as much as the sea does. Only reason for not doing it would be if there was a risk of the wind backing, but you can still get out if it gets as far as S.

The other point as I said before is SLOW DOWN. An AWB is NOT a RTW sled, you probably don't have the crew to run fast, the motion and wear and tear on the crew and the gear will be less and the weather will probably have blown itself out before you get there.

I just wonder if the gear was behaving itself; I have come to hate cheap roller headsail gears and cheap fully battened mains with a passion because they are not well engineered enough to withstand the loads put on them in a high wind without freezing up due to friction.

 

[alant]

It's really not bad; as I said before you want to be about two miles north of the point and really close in to the beach, which shelves gradually. The wind doesn't matter half as much as the sea does. Only reason for not doing it would be if there was a risk of the wind backing, but you can still get out if it gets as far as S.

The other point as I said before is SLOW DOWN. An AWB is NOT a RTW sled, you probably don't have the crew to run fast, the motion and wear and tear on the crew and the gear will be less and the weather will probably have blown itself out before you get there.

I just wonder if the gear was behaving itself; I have come to hate cheap roller headsail gears and cheap fully battened mains with a passion because they are not well engineered enough to withstand the loads put on them in a high wind without freezing up due to friction.

"Close in to the beach" in a F10.

mmmm?

I'm not too keen.

 

[Kukri]

Why on earth not?

We are talking about tucking in under the land in Dungeness East Road, which has been used as a coastal anchorage in south-westerly gales for a thousand years and doubtless more, by boats far less weatherly than ours.

What you want is shelter and a minimum amount of rolling in refracted waves.

The wind is off the land; if it veers you are fine, if it backs you have ample warning and you can certainly clear out on a broad reach long before it starts to come on shore.

I've done it in a 7-8 and I don't see the difference in principle.

Could you explain why you don't like the idea?

 

[alant]

Why on earth not?

We are talking about tucking in under the land in Dungeness East Road, which has been used as a coastal anchorage in south-westerly gales for a thousand years and doubtless more, by boats far less weatherly than ours.

What you want is shelter and a minimum amount of rolling in refracted waves.

The wind is off the land; if it veers you are fine, if it backs you have ample warning and you can certainly clear out on a broad reach long before it starts to come on shore.

I've done it in a 7-8 and I don't see the difference in principle.

Could you explain why you don't like the idea?

A gale is a gale, but a F10 is somewhat different.
7-8 chicken feed in comparison!

F7 "Sea heaps up"
F8 "moderately high waves"

F10 "exceptionally high waves"

Been there in open waters & never want to be within spitting distance of any land in one.

"if it backs you have ample warning and you can certainly clear out on a broad reach long before it starts to come on shore."

Broad reach, with exceptionally high waves, almost certainly breaking with violence that close inshore?

Sorry, this suggests to me you have never been in those extreme conditions, so is worthless advice.

 

[Kukri]

I don't think a pxxxxing contest between two men posting under pseudonyms is going to help anyone, but we may be looking at the difference between east coast and south coast habits. I don't find the lee side of a sandbank a scary place to be.

Assuming a south-westerly, the force ten wind is off the beach if we are in the east road, and we are only looking at refracted waves, which are flattened to some small extent by the wind off the beach.

I don't know what waves will be "breaking with exceptional violence that close inshore"; my experience is that waves seldom break on the weather shore.

Your preference is to run on into the Dover Strait, mine, knowing from past experience that it is safe to close Dungeness in westerlies, would be to try to tuck up behind it and give the crew a breather. If I fail to get up close enough to anchor, I am no worse off, and can resume running.

I expect to be able to broad reach under bare poles, case need; I have done it more than once - if you look at the chart you will see how much room there is.

Do we at least agree that slowing down is a good idea?

 

[alant]

I don't think a pxxxxing contest between two men posting under pseudonyms is going to help anyone, but we may be looking at the difference between east coast and south coast habits. I don't find the lee side of a sandbank a scary place to be.

Assuming a south-westerly, the force ten wind is off the beach if we are in the east road, and we are only looking at refracted waves, which are flattened to some small extent by the wind off the beach.

I don't know what waves will be "breaking with exceptional violence that close inshore"; my experience is that waves seldom break on the weather shore.

Your preference is to run on into the Dover Strait, mine, knowing from past experience that it is safe to close Dungeness in westerlies, would be to try to tuck up behind it and give the crew a breather. If I fail to get up close enough to anchor, I am no worse off, and can resume running.

I expect to be able to broad reach under bare poles, case need; I have done it more than once - if you look at the chart you will see how much room there is.

Do we at least agree that slowing down is a good idea?

I'm not looking for a pixxing contest, but you are talking about a wind that is backing, so going from SW toward S/SE.

"Exceptionally high waves" is the description for sea conditions in F10 & close to shore, would certainly be "breaking with exceptional violence". I would not, even with your obvious local knowledge of that immediate anchorage, want to be there & doubt very much that any yacht would be able claw off whilst broad reaching under bare poles.

You pointed out your background, which seems to involve big ships, which might in F10, give a much different experience to F10 in a yacht inshore. Some years ago, a small yacht running through the Needles Channel in such conditions, was pitchpoled by breaking waves & crew unfortunately died - this also broad reaching with a strong/'experienced' crew.

If you still think you could manage such a situation, we will obviously have to beg to differ.

 

[Tidewaiter2]

Sorry for the delay in posting, went out sailing this weekend

I'm not looking for a pixxing contest, but you are talking about a wind that is backing, so going from SW toward S/SE.

"Exceptionally high waves" is the description for sea conditions in F10 & close to shore, would certainly be "breaking with exceptional violence". I would not, even with your obvious local knowledge of that immediate anchorage, want to be there & doubt very much that any yacht would be able claw off whilst broad reaching under bare poles.

You pointed out your background, which seems to involve big ships, which might in F10, give a much different experience to F10 in a yacht inshore. Some years ago, a small yacht running through the Needles Channel in such conditions, was pitchpoled by breaking waves & crew unfortunately died - this also broad reaching with a strong/'experienced' crew.

If you still think you could manage such a situation, we will obviously have to beg to differ.

We are all entitled to our views, and a lot depends on your personal experiences, knowledge, skills, boat and crew fitness etc.
However, that has never stopped us all piling in on posts on this forum did it

I think we are all agreed that HL should not have been there off Dover given the forecast.
'When in doubt, don't go out, if out, your luck don't flout, safe haven seek out'
Old Harry's dictum.


Yacht lost off Needles
IMHRC, Was that not the 3 up police/family crewed charter boat pushing to get back, tight to Needles and the storm/gale was a W or SW, making that whole IoW a lee shore.Think it was wind over spring ebb tide too.

Even going across the Christchurch Bay and coming up the North Channel via the North End bouy in those conditions, is bad news, if the ebb is running, esp off Hurst, but do-able if all the gear and crew hold up.

Received wisdom is bite the bullet, slog up the S coast of the IoW well offshore and round at the Nab end.
Even better, get under Studland/into Poole and sort the extra cost/holiday out later, rather than leave it to your Executors.

Minn is clearly an widely experienced East Coast sailor, in gaffers and awb's from earlier posts, as well as big ones- having experienced both S & E coast work myself, the lee of a sandbank can be a surprising comfortable place to wait out a storm/gale, even in a Wayfarer, particularly if you can find a pool to swing in.

Did that in one several times working up the Friesan Islands*-after all, the highest thing on most of them is the lighthouse/windward sand dunes.
The windward face of a sandbank in a blow is like a concrete wall, of course, and a killer

Not sure how steep the waves were off Groote Cap Light on way to Den Helder, but we were looking down into one or two Dutch Trawlers on the way down from the top of some of them on about the 10m contour.

The cliffs at west end of bay Rye is in would give some cover, as would the anchorage suggested by Minn, provided you kept an anchor watch, ready to shift-ho if the wind shifted as far round as SE. Your crew would get some sort of rest.

Far better to have gone into Newhaven earlier before things got too leary. Or Rye if the tide would serve.

*{1998 was a summer rather like 2011's only wetter and windier; 2 months in a boat tent is a great way to lose weight
The 'Riddle of the Sands' still makes quite a good guide to successful small boat work among the islands.}

 

[alant]

We are all entitled to our views, and a lot depends on your personal experiences, knowledge, skills, boat and crew fitness etc.
However, that has never stopped us all piling in on posts on this forum did it

I think we are all agreed that HL should not have been there off Dover given the forecast.
'When in doubt, don't go out, if out, your luck don't flout, safe haven seek out'
Old Harry's dictum.


Yacht lost off Needles
IMHRC, Was that not the 3 up police/family crewed charter boat pushing to get back, tight to Needles and the storm/gale was a W or SW, making that whole IoW a lee shore.Think it was wind over spring ebb tide too.

Even going across the Christchurch Bay and coming up the North Channel via the North End bouy in those conditions, is bad news, if the ebb is running, esp off Hurst, but do-able if all the gear and crew hold up.

Received wisdom is bite the bullet, slog up the S coast of the IoW well offshore and round at the Nab end.
Even better, get under Studland/into Poole and sort the extra cost/holiday out later, rather than leave it to your Executors.

Minn is clearly an widely experienced East Coast sailor, in gaffers and awb's from earlier posts, as well as big ones- having experienced both S & E coast work myself, the lee of a sandbank can be a surprising comfortable place to wait out a storm/gale, even in a Wayfarer, particularly if you can find a pool to swing in.

Did that in one several times working up the Friesan Islands*-after all, the highest thing on most of them is the lighthouse/windward sand dunes.
The windward face of a sandbank in a blow is like a concrete wall, of course, and a killer

Not sure how steep the waves were off Groote Cap Light on way to Den Helder, but we were looking down into one or two Dutch Trawlers on the way down from the top of some of them on about the 10m contour.

The cliffs at west end of bay Rye is in would give some cover, as would the anchorage suggested by Minn, provided you kept an anchor watch, ready to shift-ho if the wind shifted as far round as SE. Your crew would get some sort of rest.

Far better to have gone into Newhaven earlier before things got too leary. Or Rye if the tide would serve.

*{1998 was a summer rather like 2011's only wetter and windier; 2 months in a boat tent is a great way to lose weight
The 'Riddle of the Sands' still makes quite a good guide to successful small boat work among the islands.}

Thought they were going up on the flood when it happened & wind was more s/sw (I was on the beach at Milford & barely able to stand up behind the sea wall). They were going from the shelter of Poole & returning to the Hamble. Court of enquiry verdict was "too much testosterone" as the cause. It wasn't the closeness to the IoW, but the breaking waves which done for them.

I have no argument with anchoring in the lee of any land, but the question raised, was the likelyhood of sailing it out "broad reaching under bare poles", when the wind had backed - thus making it a lee shore, with heavy breaking seas. We are talking about F10, not your summers yachtsmans gale.

 

[mcframe]

I think there would have been better shelter in the lee of the Folkestone Harbour Arm.

I read that as "shelter in the Folkestone Harbour Arms", and thought "Yeah, that would be nice and snug in nasty weather - I wonder if they've got real ale and an open fire? ;-)

 

[Kukri]

I'm not looking for a pixxing contest, but you are talking about a wind that is backing, so going from SW toward S/SE.

"Exceptionally high waves" is the description for sea conditions in F10 & close to shore, would certainly be "breaking with exceptional violence". I would not, even with your obvious local knowledge of that immediate anchorage, want to be there & doubt very much that any yacht would be able claw off whilst broad reaching under bare poles.

You pointed out your background, which seems to involve big ships, which might in F10, give a much different experience to F10 in a yacht inshore. Some years ago, a small yacht running through the Needles Channel in such conditions, was pitchpoled by breaking waves & crew unfortunately died - this also broad reaching with a strong/'experienced' crew.

If you still think you could manage such a situation, we will obviously have to beg to differ.

I never intended to suggest that Dungeness East Road is tenable in a southeasterly - obviously it is not!

I was talking about a south westerly, at least that is what I intended to convey.

Anyone who waits at anchor in a coastal roadstead untl a force ten wind has come on shore has signed his own death warrant and done his bit for Darwin.

You stand anchor watches and pay close attention, but this does give the rest of the crew a break.

In the case of Dungeness east road, in a Sw'ly, the moment the wind starts to back, and well before it gets anywhere near South, you need to get out - which you can do, broad reaching under bare poles. This was a sailing ship anchorage for centuries, and that is what they did.

If the wind is veering, typically with the passage of the cold front, which was my situation, you should be all right until it has blown itself out.

The objective is to get a bit of (strictly relative!) rest for the crew. Crew fatigue is what does for most boats in heavy weather. I hope we agree about that.

My old CA Handbook seems to be on board - anyone got a copy handy? I'm sure the old editions covered this use of Dungeness.

 

[alant]

I never intended to suggest that Dungeness East Road is tenable in a southeasterly - obviously it is not!

I was talking about a south westerly, at least that is what I intended to convey.

Anyone who waits at anchor in a coastal roadstead untl a force ten wind has come on shore has signed his own death warrant and done his bit for Darwin.

You stand anchor watches and pay close attention, but this does give the rest of the crew a break.

In the case of Dungeness east road, in a Sw'ly, the moment the wind starts to back, and well before it gets anywhere near South, you need to get out - which you can do, broad reaching under bare poles. This was a sailing ship anchorage for centuries, and that is what they did.

If the wind is veering, typically with the passage of the cold front, which was my situation, you should be all right until it has blown itself out.

The objective is to get a bit of (strictly relative!) rest for the crew. Crew fatigue is what does for most boats in heavy weather. I hope we agree about that.

My old CA Handbook seems to be on board - anyone got a copy handy? I'm sure the old editions covered this use of Dungeness.

Thanks for that, for a moment I had you classified under 'brave sailor!