Horrific flare accident

[trapezeartist]

Coastguard regs have to take into account HSE work rules, which we don't. Many lifeboat shouts have come about by flares being seen from shore by members of the public who most likely wouldn't recognise a laser as a distress signal. Where we're based, flares are mandatory, as is a long list of equipment - Most UK registered boats come into category 1 - http://liveinfo.lagosnavigators.net...uguese-safety-equipment-standards-for-yachts/

Yes the Coastguard does have to take into account the dreaded Elf and Safety, and I would put the paperwork into that category. But when it comes to the practicalities of transport, storage, firing and the potential for things going wrong, there is no difference between the Coastguard and "we". I agree with you on the point about laser flares. That's why I'm hoping that there will be a nationally or internationally-recognised standard soon, and why I am currently in the unsatisfactory situation of carrying neither flares nor a safe alternative.

 

[Daydream believer]

That's why I'm hoping that there will be a nationally or internationally-recognised standard soon, and why I am currently in the unsatisfactory situation of carrying neither flares nor a safe alternative.

Do you honestly believe that even if there was such a standard for lasers the general public would be aware of it & treat it as a distress signal

 

[michael_w]

I have always practiced with out of date flares on and at a sutable location. Friend's farm in the middle of Rutland on 5 November.

Having been involved in a night rescue near the Nab Tower, the hand held flare used by the casualty, who was in a liferaft, pinpointed him against the lights of Portsmouth.

Very pistols are not a toy. My father killed a man with one, in Warsaw, 1944.

 

[lw395]

I have always practiced with out of date flares on and at a sutable location. Friend's farm in the middle of Rutland on 5 November.

Having been involved in a night rescue near the Nab Tower, the hand held flare used by the casualty, who was in a liferaft, pinpointed him against the lights of Portsmouth.

Very pistols are not a toy. My father killed a man with one, in Warsaw, 1944.

I know a couple of people who've used hand held reds or smokes. I think they still have a definite role.
Rockets perhaps less so, you can raise the alarm with VHF, EPIRB, mobile phone, sat phone etc.

 

[JumbleDuck]

I know a couple of people who've used hand held reds or smokes. I think they still have a definite role.
Rockets perhaps less so, you can raise the alarm with VHF, EPIRB, mobile phone, sat phone etc.

A Very Senior Coastguard who used to borrow my boat advised me to carry as many handheld reds as I could afford and not to bother with rockets at all.

Oddly enough, I was think about this just last week. I was motoring down the Clyde and saw a boat behaving a wee bit oddly about 1/2 mile away. Since I can barely hear the VHF from the tiller at the best of times, and not at all when the engine is running, it struck me that if he was in distress the only practical and reliable way in which he could have let me know was with a pyrotechnic. Which in turn led me to think that if I was in distress and wanted him to know, the only practical and reliable way would have been with a pyrotechnic.

Pressing the panic button and making a cup of coffee which the lifeboat is getting there is all very well in theory, but if you really, really want to let other boats nearby know that you have a problem - on the West of Scotland, if not the Clyde, the nearest lifeboat can easily be a couple of hours away, even inshore - then flares are unsurpassed. Nasty, dangerous things, of course, but I wouldn't be without them.

 

[bedouin]

I know a couple of people who've used hand held reds or smokes. I think they still have a definite role.
Rockets perhaps less so, you can raise the alarm with VHF, EPIRB, mobile phone, sat phone etc.

I tend to agree on that - I think the next flare pack will just be an "inshore" pack with a couple of hand held reds and smokes for immediate vessel identification but relying on EPRIB, VHF, Mobile etc as the primary contact mechanism offshore

 

[duncan99210]

Pyrotechnics are an excellent way of summoning help. Whilst they will never be 100% safe, they are relatively safe if used properly. I carry red parachute, handheld reds, smoke (floating and handheld) and white hand held. They live in a sealed plastic olive tub, bought in the local shops in Greece for pence. Along with a pair of garden gloves, they represent a simple way to signal alarm in waters where often the best hope of rescue comes from other folks at sea rather than a shore based organisation.

I've used flares to pinpoint the boat for a RNLI lifeboat and remain firmly of the opinion that a laser flare in the conditions that night simply would not have been seen except occasionally as we emerged from the troughs of the waves.

I also feel that the biggest danger involved in pyrotechnics comes from users not being familiar with them and how to use them. I tried for years to get SWMBO to try using flares and smokes: she was most reluctant and refused. We then went to a demo laid on the HMCG where everyone who attended was given a chance to set off either a hand held flare or smoke. The comment later was to the effect of not knowing why she'd delayed for so long.......

Incidentally, CG vehicles have to comply with transport regulations, which is why their pyrotechnics are kept in metal boxes, have to be in a separate compartment and accompanied by reams of paper. It's not because the things really need to be treated like that, rather the regulations were designed to cover the transport of large quantities of much more unstable stuff which does need careful handling....

 

[Mariner69]

Rocket flares are a different matter, though, because they can land still burning and start fires.

Pete

I seem to recall that SOLAS requires the flares to burn out not less than 200 feet above the sea surface in order to avoid igniting any oil that may be laying on the surface. There is always the chance of a dodgy parachute but then you pays your money.........

 

[lpdsn]

I agree with you on the point about laser flares. That's why I'm hoping that there will be a nationally or internationally-recognised standard soon, and why I am currently in the unsatisfactory situation of carrying neither flares nor a safe alternative.

You'll be fine, just don't get into a situation where you're in trouble and you won't need either.

As others have said already, the general public will recognise a flare as a distress signal. They may get confused between red and white, but the chances are someone will call the coastguard. A flashed SOS by lamp might be recognised by fewer but stands a fair chance of getting a response. The typical response to your internationally recognised laser flare standard may well be to mutter something about the tourist board wasting money on light shows again.

 

[Seajet]

All alternatives to flares rely on electrical power, either from the boat or self contained, so are fallible - it could be said especially so when near water, whether designed for it or not.

Coastguard lookouts who might have been trained to recognise something like a laser ' flare ' are no longer there ( I know the volunteers do a great job but not everywhere all the time ).

The only distress signal likely to get the attention of the public, be it ashore or passengers on ships etc is a flare.

Like others I have practiced firing time expired flares on November 5th - I live well inland.

How about collision warning ? if a bloody great bow looms out of the poor vis, the VHF won't save you but a white flare might.

I will carry the full range of flares for the foreseeable future.

Incidentally our club has occasional demo's by the Coastguard, combined with a ' flare amnesty ', at least they used to; this seems an excellent idea on several levels.

 

[sailorman]

All alternatives to flares rely on electrical power, either from the boat or self contained, so are fallible - it could be said especially so when near water, whether designed for it or not.

Coastguard lookouts who might have been trained to recognise something like a laser ' flare ' are no longer there ( I know the volunteers do a great job but not everywhere all the time ).

The only distress signal likely to get the attention of the public, be it ashore or passengers on ships etc is a flare.

Like others I have practiced firing time expired flares on November 5th - I live well inland.

How about collision warning ? if a bloody great bow looms out of the poor vis, the VHF won't save you but a white flare might.

I will carry the full range of flares for the foreseeable future.

Incidentally our club has occasional demo's by the Coastguard, combined with a ' flare amnesty ', at least they used to; this seems an excellent idea on several levels.

How long will it take for the ship change course in that situation

 

[lw395]

How long will it take for the ship change course in that situation

It won't, but they'll know to look for you?

 

[Seajet]

Obviously it depends, but a flare is the only way I can think of letting them know you're there, even if it's to stop and look for debris !

That's an extreme example, but the fact is there's not much to replace the white warning flare; and a good tip I was told was ' keep the white flares really handy, if you need them it'll be a lot quicker than you'd need a red '.

 

[duncan99210]

Obviously it depends, but a flare is the only way I can think of letting them know you're there, even if it's to stop and look for debris !

That's an extreme example, but the fact is there's not much to replace the white warning flare; and a good tip I was told was ' keep the white flares really handy, if you need them it'll be a lot quicker than you'd need a red '.

When sailing at night we keep a white handheld on a bit of Velcro to one side of the companionway steps, easily grabbed if needed.

 

[coliholic]

Reading this thread esp re disposing of old flares set me thinking. I dug around in my wardrobe and found my kit of four flares dated 2003 so thought I'd find out how to dispose of them.

Rang my nearest RNLI, no answer. Rang another RNLI a bit further away and got an answer and explained that I wanted to get rid of them. He said he couldn't help but ring the Humber Coastguard.

Explained to the chappie there that I had some flares dated 2003 and he jokingly replied, "I've got some platform shoes from the 80's, perhaps we could have a revival". So we had a bit of a giggle and banter and he said unfortunately they couldn't really help with the disposal, try the local chandlers they sometimes take them. I asked him about letting them off on bonfire night and he said they don't recommend that, never know if they're in good enough condition to let off and then added, "of course sir, if you'd found them on a beach just around high tide level and didn't want to touch them the police on 101 would have to deal with them wouldn't they? Thanks for your call sir" .

Don't know if that helps at all.

 

[lw395]

When sailing at night we keep a white handheld on a bit of Velcro to one side of the companionway steps, easily grabbed by inquisitive three year olds.

FTFY
We have a 55W hand held halogen spotlight wired into the ships 12V.
Any ship too far away to notice that aimed at the bridge probably doesn't worry me.
We do carry flares, I'm happy to buy them and get rid of them every 3 years, actually using one, particularly a rocket, would be a last resort.

 

[sailaboutvic]

All this talk about flares , who needs flares , I just carry a barrow of tar strapped down on my deck and a few fire lighters , that would do the job nicely .

 

[Len Ingalls]

Hi from Canada
Flares are required in US & Canada. Qty & type required varies by length of vessel. "Pistol" launched are the most convenient & arguably the safest,compared to a handheld type.
Boggles my mind that EU considers a flare launcher a gun.
Orion brand is probably the most common : Example of products http://store.hamiltonmarine.com/bro...lert-12ga-w-neoprene-case-753203/4,58225.html
Available at any chandlery in N.A.
Cheers / Len

 

[TheCharteringClasses]

Do you honestly believe that even if there was such a standard for lasers the general public would be aware of it & treat it as a distress signal

There is anyway, they flash SOS which is very widely known as a distress signal even outside the boaty world.

Annex IV section d:

Annex IV - Distress Signals
1.. The following signals, used or exhibited either together or separately, indicate distress and need of assistance:
(...)
(d). a signal made by radiotelegraphy or by any other signalling method consisting of the group ...---... (SOS) in the
Morse Code;

Although I still doubt many would act on it.

 

[Daydream believer]

There is anyway, they flash SOS which is very widely known as a distress signal even outside the boaty world.

Lasers (and hand held flares)are limited by the line of sight which would be from sea level, as opposed to a flare fired to a greater height which gives a greater range. hand held flares would have less duration but I would rather have them, although in a distress situation I would not refuse one.
A lot of people might consider a red laser to be a flashing buoy at night.
I have no idea how lasers perform in daylight. Do they still show up on a sunny day?

There was , some years ago, a company selling red balloons on a string which would help spot someone in the water. Are they still about & if so would a junkie on the shore seeing them just think someone was having a party with magic mushrooms