HMRC consultation on Red Diesel

[NormanS]

You don't have to buy fuel at the quayside. You can buy it where you fill your car and carry it to the boat.
The main reason no white diesel is available at the quayside is that there is no market for it while everyone buys red.

I'm sure that works if you're berthed in a marina, and only venture out on short excursions. Since my boat is moored out on a swinging mooring, and most of our cruises are for three weeks or so (apart from our main cruise, where she is off the mooring for about ten weeks), the notion of carrying diesel in sufficient quantities in containers, is ludicrous.

Still, if we're leaving the EU anyway, there will be no need to comply with EU dictates, unless you want to go foreign, in which case obviously, you have to comply with the foreign country's laws, like driving on the correct side of the road.

 

[AngusMcDoon]

Why not? That's what we've got at our marina. It's what they've got ina lot of other places too

The whole point of these off the shelf self contained bunded tanks is that they meet all the regulations and require no additional infrastructure other than a flat base and a power supply (if it is a powered pump, they can be supplied with manual pumps too)

I'm in Lochinver at the moment. The Highland Council harbours' office is here, home of the manager of all the council harbours, Tony Usher. I went in for a quick chat to see what the harbours' office thought about whether the council would be able to afford, or if it would be worthwhile, to install separate facilities for white diesel where there are currently facilities for red. I suggested that the cost of the equipment, given that's there's an existing flat area with electricity supply, would be £2k to £5k, given the posts on this thread. The answer was that there is no budget to spend this money in any of the harbours the council runs & none of those harbours sell sufficient diesel to leisure boats to justify it.

The only Highland harbour that might do it is Ullapool as it's not council run & they seem to have budget for infrastructure. I expect the Outer Hebrides will be in a similar position, with only non-council run Stornoway having the budget to do it.

 

[lw395]

I'm in Lochinver at the moment. The Highland Council harbours' office is here, home of the manager of all the council harbours, Tony Usher. I went in for a quick chat to see what the harbours' office thought about whether the council would be able to afford, or if it would be worthwhile, to install separate facilities for white diesel where there are currently facilities for red. I suggested that the cost of the equipment, given that's there's an existing flat area with electricity supply, would be £2k to £5k, given the posts on this thread. His answer was that there is no budget to spend this money in any of the harbours he runs & none of those harbours sell sufficient diesel to leisure boats to justify it.

The only Highland harbour that might do it is Ullapool as it's not council run & they seem to have budget for infrastructure. I expect the Outer Hebrides will be in a similar position, with only non-council run Stornoway having the budget to do it.

£2k split between the boat owners in a region? Small beer.
The trouble is, the smaller users will just use cans, so it's only a few who really want quayside fuel that badly. And any bigger boats will probably consider buying fuel while they are near the bigger ports. Maybe some largish yachts will want bigger tanks. Maybe people will consider fuel when they decide how big a boat to get, that's the real world.

 

[AngusMcDoon]

I'm sure that works if you're berthed in a marina, and only venture out on short excursions. Since my boat is moored out on a swinging mooring, and most of our cruises are for three weeks or so (apart from our main cruise, where she is off the mooring for about ten weeks), the notion of carrying diesel in sufficient quantities in containers, is ludicrous.

I'm out for 4 months each summer up & down the west coast & islands from Kirkcudbright to Kinlochbervie. My boat is petrol powered. There are no waterside petrol pumps beyond the Clyde that I'm aware of, so all my fuel arrives on board by cans. I've learned where the harbours are that have a roadside supply near the water, or harbour masters who will give a lift to get fuel (Castlebay, Lochaline, Lochinver).

Doable? Yes.
Inconvenient? Yes.
Ludicrous? No.

Not everyone has a boat like yours, & we manage ok. It's the diesel powered leisure motor boats in far flung parts who will suffer the most.

 

[bikedaft]

mmm. dunno. we use only about 2-300litres per year, and its almost all via cans. its a PITA, tho doable.

more than happy to buy red diesel, taxed - is this going to be an option?

 

[Bobc]

Not really a big deal for us raggies. The stinkpot owners will get a nasty shock though, when their fill-up costs double from £1,000 a go to £2,000 a go.

Expect to see lots for sale and prices dropping.

 

[AngusMcDoon]

mmm. dunno. we use only about 2-300litres per year, and its almost all via cans. its a PITA, tho doable.

more than happy to buy red diesel, taxed - is this going to be an option?

Not if the EU have their way, because it's using marked fuel that they object to, not the duty discount. Even with Brexit, if we're in some funny half in half out state, we might still have to comply. Who knows?

 

[neil1967]

Not really a big deal for us raggies. The stinkpot owners will get a nasty shock though, when their fill-up costs double from £1,000 a go to £2,000 a go.

Expect to see lots for sale and prices dropping.

Why will their costs double - they are/should be paying tax already, it's just that they get red diesel at white diesel prices at the moment...........

 

[Bobc]

Why will their costs double - they are/should be paying tax already, it's just that they get red diesel at white diesel prices at the moment...........

Yea, right. I looked out of the window and saw a pig flying past.

 

[NormanS]

I'm out for 4 months each summer up & down the west coast & islands from Kirkcudbright to Kinlochbervie. My boat is petrol powered. There are no waterside petrol pumps beyond the Clyde that I'm aware of, so all my fuel arrives on board by cans. I've learned where the harbours are that have a roadside supply near the water, or harbour masters who will give a lift to get fuel (Castlebay, Lochaline, Lochinver).

Doable? Yes.
Inconvenient? Yes.
Ludicrous? No.

Not everyone has a boat like yours, & we manage ok. It's the diesel powered leisure motor boats in far flung parts who will suffer the most.

OK, so that we know if we are comparing similar situations, roughly how many litres of petrol(!) do you use during your four months? In the full year, I use about 400 litres of diesel.

 

[AngusMcDoon]

OK, so that we know if we are comparing similar situations, roughly how many litres of petrol(!) do you use during your four months? In the full year, I use about 400 litres of diesel.

Last year 57 cans with about 5.5 litres in each, so just over 300 litres. I don't sail again outside my 4 month trip. It's a faff, & it requires planning & sometimes diverting just to get fuel, but it's doable. Everyone sailing in this part of the world may be doing the same in the coming years.

 

[CLB]

I often use 400 litres in a day. Not all PBOers are sailors.

 

[Lucky Duck]

The equivalent thread on the MOBO forum has attracted that many contributions which is perhaps rather surprising.

 

[AngusMcDoon]

I often use 400 litres in a day. Not all PBOers are sailors.

Yep, I know, which is why I said it's going to hit the diesel propelled leisure boats hardest in these parts upthread.

 

[neil1967]

Yea, right. I looked out of the window and saw a pig flying past.

Oh, I agree, but not changing from red to white because it makes it harder to evade tax is hardly a valid argument

 

[Biggles Wader]

I often use 400 litres in a day. Not all PBOers are sailors.

And how much of that is used for propulsion and how much for, ahem, heating?

 

[Deleted member 36384]

It’s pretty clear from the linked information in the OPs post, and the articles links, that we have an opportunity to influence the implementation period.

I will respond based on my own experiences and volume of diesel used. It’s going to happen, so I would like a long period of time, post marina upgrade to dilute my system e.g. 5 years for marinas to change over (or other recognized yacht bunkering places), plus some additional years to dilute our marked diesel, that would be less than the facility upgrade years as folks should run down marked diesel in their system.

That’s my thoughts so far. I have already decommissioned one 60 Gallon tank and it takes me about 2 seasons at current usage levels to use the other 60 gallons.

I am confident the market in Scotland will respond positively to white diesel supply at the marinas. The issue is marking of diesel, not revenue collection or refunding.

Would a commercially operated yacht, say a sailing school, still be allowed to use marked fuel?

 

[Spirit (of Glenans)]

A question springs to mind on the subject of red diesel.
What was the driver for removing the red diesel from use in UK.
If it was EU driven and we are leaving the EU why are we continuing down this road.
I honestly can't remember what else could have prompted this decision back whenever.

Not necessarily so

 

[Quandary]

The French and Spanish deep sea trawlers pump many thousands of litres of red diesel in to their huge tanks when they come in to LochInver to unload, I have seen a 75 mm.fuel pipe running full chat for hours, if colour is the issue it does not seem to bother them too much. That the harbour is willing to put 20 litres in a container for a yachty is a generous gesture. The availability of fuel at these harbours for yachts is appreciated as it must be a pain in the butt to provide the attention.
Some harbours want to control the decanting of diesel with risk of spillage pollution and do not encourage containers, Tobermory will not fill containers at the dock, they require you to take them to the garage but so far have not tried to prevent decanting in to boats where the risk of spills is considerably greater. A combination of a ban on containers and the loss of direct availability is llikely at around the same time, back to the Clyde?

 

[Spirit (of Glenans)]

Yes, I drive a car in Scotland. So what? I fail to see the relevance of your statement.
What does that have to do with the nonavailability of white diesel at the quayside?

Owners who drive to their boat's home base can pick up fuel along the way, whereas visiting boats arrivig at a small, mainly fishing, port may have difficulty getting road diesel as the fuel station may be some distance away. An example would be Baltimore, where the nearest garage is in Skibbereen, 11km away.