HMRC consultation on Red Diesel

[Malish]

Bingo! Why don't we just bin dyed fuel and make all fuel duty payable on purchase? Those concerns that are eligible for duty free concessions can then apply for refund of duty which should not be a problem in the modern age. Lets face it some reckon we can operate the NI border by technology so this will be child's play. Yes there will be fraud just as there is now but it would require active applications for refunds rather than passive use of red fuel and there would be a clear "paper trail" for HMRC to follow. Seems like a win to me.

the only 'legal' argument I can see is one of cashflow - you have to give a tidy sum to the Govt and then wait a while to get it back again.

 

[Biggles Wader]

the only 'legal' argument I can see is one of cashflow - you have to give a tidy sum to the Govt and then wait a while to get it back again.

That's true but technology should mean the delays would be minimal and ultimately worth it to sort out this archaic nonsense.

 

[Deleted member 36384]

Except that it IS NOT CRAP

What underground storage tanks?

What "staff costs"?

What "H&S" issues?

They're already dispensing diesel for crying out loud!

You don't NEED to stick it on a pontoon

The diesel tank at Fambridge is EXACTLY the sort of self contained bunded tank I am talking about. It's on the bank with a hose run to the fuel berth hose reel.

These things are in widespread use all over the place from marinas to farms to plant hire yards to ... well anywhere where a drop it on the ground and meet the regulations supply of fuel is needed.

Bluntly, he was just reciting the list of pathetic bleating excuses the industry has been trotting out for over a decade as to why the UK is incapable of doing something the rest of Europe (bar Ireland) had no bloody difficulty doing at all

Oh for sure, the self contained bunded tank isn't going to be the ideal solution in high volume locations but then operators who sell large columes of diesel will be proportionally just as able to amortise the cost of providing unmarked fuel

Just watch how quickly the industry changes it's tune when they HAVE to start supplying unmarked fuel!

+1, same at Kip and Craobh marina, the two I have used recently, surface tanks, pipe and hose runs, dispensing unit; very simple installations. Also, I think most marinas will just run down the marked fuel, maybe clean out the tanks and fill with white, even less cost!

 

[Bru]

I think you’re missing the point. For those places where there is a significant demand for white fuel (say in excess of 50% of their business) it’ll be worthwhile investing in tankage and dispensing equipment to cover both white and red diesel.
For those existing places which currently sell red diesel primarily to commercial vessels with a side line selling to pleasure boats, the chances are that it won’t be worth their while investing in a second set of dispensing kit to sell white diesel. Whether you like it or not, there are environmental control regulations in place which will mean that you can’t simply place a second set of gear into an existing location. You’ll need permissions and licences, none of which come cheap, so the cost benefit analysis will tend toward the “I can’t be bothered” and of the spectrum rather than “coo, I could make some more money” end.
Final point. Any dispensing pumps will need to be certifiable by the local trading standards folks and HMRC, as they’re retail vending kit. I’m not sure that the dispensing kit supplied with the bunded tanks being quoted here will meet those levels of accuracy, thus adding further to the costs involved.

If they'rre selling red diesel they already have the permissions and licences necessary to sell white. And/or both. No additional permissions are needed*. Not an issue

The meters on the bunded tanks I have referenced are to the relevant standards. They already have to meet those standards on their existing kit. Not an issue

I haven't missed the point about isolated locations in remote areas, that's aan issue which does need addressing. It's not an excuse applicable to the bulk of the marine industry

* Large fixed installations could potentially need planning permission but we're not talking that scale of installation.

 

[Quandary]

Surely the point is that for a marina such as where Boots keeps his boat it is not a problem, they have plenty of customers and a near by source of supply. Go further North or West where there are no marinas, just fishing harbours with some provision for pleasure boats it is not practical to have a separate supply. The cheap 1or 2 thousand litre tank wil not hold enough for an economic delivery from the other side of Scotland and a big tank will not sell enough to justify regular full tanker loads. The idea of a road tanker coming to the quay to sell 50 litres is equally daft. Flowerdale has two visitor pontoon berths, sometimes up to four visiting boats, the next nearest supply on the quay is Kyle to the South or Lochinver to the North, the number of visiting boats and residents is miniscule compared to Croabh or Ardfern. The provision is even less along the outer isles but these are the places some of us want to go. You are ignoring the logistic problems in supplying separate fuel to these places, the easy solution is to allow them to sell us the red diesel that is in the tanks they have, just adjust the price to include the tax.

 

[Bru]

Surely the point is that for a marina such as where Boots keeps his boat it is not a problem, they have plenty of customers and a near by source of supply. Go further North or West where there are no marinas, just fishing harbours with some provision for pleasure boats it is not practical to have a separate supply. The cheap 1or 2 thousand litre tank wil not hold enough for an economic delivery from the other side of Scotland and a big tank will not sell enough to justify regular full tanker loads. The idea of a road tanker coming to the quay to sell 50 litres is equally daft. Flowerdale has two visitor pontoon berths, sometimes up to four visiting boats, the next nearest supply on the quay is Kyle to the South or Lochinver to the North, the number of visiting boats and residents is miniscule compared to Croabh or Ardfern. The provision is even less along the outer isles but these are the places some of us want to go. You are ignoring the logistic problems in supplying separate fuel to these places, the easy solution is to allow them to sell us the red diesel that is in the tanks they have, just adjust the price to include the tax.

I'm not ignoring the problem as such, it IS a problem. However it is a localised problem confined to one remote area of the UK. Rather than deal with that localised problem (and the equally "localised" problem of continously cruising boats on the inland waterways and their mixed use of fuel) the WHOLE of the UK has been on the wrong side of the law for a very long time

MY localised problem is that without a reliable and accessible supply of unmarked diesel I can't, other than at equally great inconvenience, continue to cruise to the near continent once the patience of their authorities finally runs out (which it will very soon)

And I'm not entirely convinced by the argument that it would be uneconomic to supply unmarked diesel to remoter parts of Scotland anyway. How do people in Lochinver (to pick a location that was mentioned earlier in the thread) get heating oil? Highland Fuels have depots in Ullapool, Stornoway, Inverness, Oban and even Kirkwall

Plus, if there's a garage nearby receiving deliveries of DERV by multi-cell tanker (and all the larger tankers are multi-compartment) then a split load is a routine matter

Hells bells, there's even 4x4 pickup truck micro-tankers carrying getting on for 1000l with metered pump and a long hose. Some enterprising Scot could make perhaps make a tidy living out of that!

The bottom line is that we've waffled and prevaricated ourselves to a dead end instead of finding solutions to the problems. Now we've got no choice but to find answers, it's no good saying "this can't happen, this won't work" because it IS happening and it's got to be made to work

 

[superheat6k]

Can anyone really justify taxing diesel for a leisure yacht less than diesel for someone to drive a car to work?

At present we are still in the EU. If/when we leave, we are likely to be in some sort of transition for a few years, and after that, who knows? Maybe some sort of formal alignment of rules, but even without that, rules are tending to converge between neighbouring states.

I think it's a done deal and no good will come from resisting.
We've had plenty of warning, the transitional system has been abused by people claiming to use lots of fuel for heating, the current position is heavy on paperwork.

Are you a tax man - you seem hell bent on paying something that, in my view, is simply illegitimate.

After all this is same HMRC who prevent a private citizen driving to France and buying beer to sell to his mates, but at the same allows Tesco et al to do just that.

When road vehicles were taxed on the diesel fuel they used it was known as DERV - Diesel Engine Road Vehicle. Well my boat is not a road vehicle. That the Dictatorship across the channel insists we should do this (for now at least) is another subject entirely.

 

[AngusMcDoon]

I'm not ignoring the problem as such, it IS a problem. However it is a localised problem confined to one remote area of the UK. Rather than deal with that localised problem (and the equally "localised" problem of continously cruising boats on the inland waterways and their mixed use of fuel) the WHOLE of the UK has been on the wrong side of the law for a very long time

MY localised problem is that without a reliable and accessible supply of unmarked diesel I can't, other than at equally great inconvenience, continue to cruise to the near continent once the patience of their authorities finally runs out (which it will very soon)

And I'm not entirely convinced by the argument that it would be uneconomic to supply unmarked diesel to remoter parts of Scotland anyway. How do people in Lochinver (to pick a location that was mentioned earlier in the thread) get heating oil? Highland Fuels have depots in Ullapool, Stornoway, Inverness, Oban and even Kirkwall

Plus, if there's a garage nearby receiving deliveries of DERV by multi-cell tanker (and all the larger tankers are multi-compartment) then a split load is a routine matter

Hells bells, there's even 4x4 pickup truck micro-tankers carrying getting on for 1000l with metered pump and a long hose. Some enterprising Scot could make perhaps make a tidy living out of that!

The bottom line is that we've waffled and prevaricated ourselves to a dead end instead of finding solutions to the problems. Now we've got no choice but to find answers, it's no good saying "this can't happen, this won't work" because it IS happening and it's got to be made to work

There's no problem getting white diesel in Lochinver (or any of the Highland harbours). There's a petrol station nearby & the council have their own white diesel tanks & dispensing equipment for council vehicles, which is also in the harbour, but not at the waterside. However, it's not a marina, it's a fishing harbour with a few pontoons. Speaking to the harbours' office today they don't have the budget or sales to justify installing separate equipment for the realitively tiny amounts of fuel supplied to leisure boats in their harbours, so won't be installing equipment to do it in Lochinver or anywhere else, even if it is only £2k per site to do so. Someone else might come up with a solution, but the council won't be. Informally they assist people to get fuel from the petrol station for those who need petrol, & that's just the way it is likely to be. An inconvenience to sailing boats, more of a problem for mobos.

 

[lw395]

Are you a tax man - you seem hell bent on paying something that, in my view, is simply illegitimate.

After all this is same HMRC who prevent a private citizen driving to France and buying beer to sell to his mates, but at the same allows Tesco et al to do just that.

When road vehicles were taxed on the diesel fuel they used it was known as DERV - Diesel Engine Road Vehicle. Well my boat is not a road vehicle. That the Dictatorship across the channel insists we should do this (for now at least) is another subject entirely.

The time for arguing the principle is long past.
No coherent argument has been made and a decision was taken.
Now we are just late in the game of sorting an implementation, having frittered away the generous notice period.
IF people just witter on about 'it's not a road vehicle', then they will detract from efforts to sort out a workable transition.

Personally I sail on two boats, the one we take to France from time to time had been on white for a couple of years. It's convenient and we tend to use the sails mostly.

 

[Bru]

There's no problem getting white diesel in Lochinver (or any of the Highland harbours). There's a petrol station nearby & the council have their own white diesel tanks & dispensing equipment for council vehicles, which is also in the harbour, but not at the waterside. However, it's not a marina, it's a fishing harbour with a few pontoons. Speaking to the harbours' office today they don't have the budget or sales to justify installing separate equipment for the realitively tiny amounts of fuel supplied to leisure boats in their harbours, so won't be installing equipment to do it in Lochinver or anywhere else, even if it is only £2k per site to do so. Someone else might come up with a solution, but the council won't be. Informally they assist people to get fuel from the petrol station for those who need petrol, & that's just the way it is likely to be. An inconvenience to sailing boats, more of a problem for mobos.

So if the annual sales of diesel to pleasure boats are so small at that location, with respect, it's hardly a show stopping problem that thousands of East and South coast boat owners should have to put up with for the sake of a handful of Scottish West Coast cruisers (and I'm not dismissing the problem - the Cunning Retirement Plan has us spending two years in Scottish waters, at least)

If it's a financial issue then perhaps some form of aid should be forthcoming from one or more agencies

As lw395 dsaid, it's too late, years too late, to be arguing about whether or not we should comply with the relevant directives, that game is over. The issue now is the how we go about complying with them and deal with any problems, such as this, which arise

 

[AngusMcDoon]

So if the annual sales of diesel to pleasure boats are so small at that location, with respect, it's hardly a show stopping problem that thousands of East and South coast boat owners should have to put up with for the sake of a handful of Scottish West Coast cruisers (and I'm not dismissing the problem - the Cunning Retirement Plan has us spending two years in Scottish waters, at least)

If it's a financial issue then perhaps some form of aid should be forthcoming from one or more agencies

As lw395 dsaid, it's too late, years too late, to be arguing about whether or not we should comply with the relevant directives, that game is over. The issue now is the how we go about complying with them and deal with any problems, such as this, which arise

I'm not saying it is a show stopping problem for the UK as a whole, nor am I arguing that leisure boats should be allowed to continue to use red. It doesn't affect me anyway, I'm petrol powered.

My initial contribution to this thread was when I saw posts saying that it will only cost £2-5k per site to install separate facilities & all small harbours that currently supply red would automatically install separate facilities for white, I went & banged on the door of the man with the budget to ask his opinion, & his opinion is that the harbours he manages won't be doing so.

My other contribution was to counter the idea that it's ludicrous to fuel a sailing boat from roadside facilities, because I have been doing exactly that for a 4 month trip each summer for the last 6 years.

Mobos of course will have a greater problem & I expect that the few long distance visiting diesel powered cruising mobos that are seen in this area will diminish to virtually none at all, & resident ones will rarely go anywhere.

 

[Deleted member 36384]

On all the boats I have sailed, there has always been a large spare canister of diesel, about 25l size, in the cockpit locker. A second 25l container could easily be stored in most boats. A tank full and 2 x 25l containers should easily see most sailing yachts on the west coast get about between facilities offering quay side white.

It's not hard to solve, it was the norm when I started sailing in the 80's to be that bit more self sufficient when going out the Clyde, no one batted an eye lid or wrung hands with fear and worry - folks even carried collapsable, shopping bag trolly devices to lug containers. This lack of can do attitude goes along with the desperate desire for pontoons, moorings and phone signals. White diesel is not hard to solve for sailing boats.

Small children walk 10 miles each day for water in Africa, carrying a can in each hand and balancing one on their head head. It should be a piece of cake for us to manage white diesel in remote areas where quay side facilities are not available. Just get on with it.

 

[Old Harry]

On all the boats I have sailed, there has always been a large spare canister of diesel, about 25l size, in the cockpit locker. A second 25l container could easily be stored in most boats. A tank full and 2 x 25l containers should easily see most sailing yachts on the west coast get about between facilities offering quay side white.

It's not hard to solve, it was the norm when I started sailing in the 80's to be that bit more self sufficient when going out the Clyde, no one batted an eye lid or wrung hands with fear and worry - folks even carried collapsable, shopping bag trolly devices to lug containers. This lack of can do attitude goes along with the desperate desire for pontoons, moorings and phone signals. White diesel is not hard to solve for sailing boats.

Small children walk 10 miles each day for water in Africa, carrying a can in each hand and balancing one on their head head. It should be a piece of cake for us to manage white diesel in remote areas where quay side facilities are not available. Just get on with it.

surely its easier to live closer to the water supply

 

[bikedaft]

On all the boats I have sailed, there has always been a large spare canister of diesel, about 25l size, in the cockpit locker. A second 25l container could easily be stored in most boats. A tank full and 2 x 25l containers should easily see most sailing yachts on the west coast get about between facilities offering quay side white.

It's not hard to solve, it was the norm when I started sailing in the 80's to be that bit more self sufficient when going out the Clyde, no one batted an eye lid or wrung hands with fear and worry - folks even carried collapsable, shopping bag trolly devices to lug containers. This lack of can do attitude goes along with the desperate desire for pontoons, moorings and phone signals. White diesel is not hard to solve for sailing boats.

Small children walk 10 miles each day for water in Africa, carrying a can in each hand and balancing one on their head head. It should be a piece of cake for us to manage white diesel in remote areas where quay side facilities are not available. Just get on with it.

+1

 

[bikedaft]

surely its easier to live closer to the water supply

stop starting!!

 

[AngusMcDoon]

On all the boats I have sailed, there has always been a large spare canister of diesel, about 25l size, in the cockpit locker. A second 25l container could easily be stored in most boats. A tank full and 2 x 25l containers should easily see most sailing yachts on the west coast get about between facilities offering quay side white.

It's not hard to solve, it was the norm when I started sailing in the 80's to be that bit more self sufficient when going out the Clyde, no one batted an eye lid or wrung hands with fear and worry - folks even carried collapsable, shopping bag trolly devices to lug containers. This lack of can do attitude goes along with the desperate desire for pontoons, moorings and phone signals. White diesel is not hard to solve for sailing boats.

When all the kerfuffle is over, people will adapt & life will go on.

 

[Boathook]

I think it is possibly worse than that, you can't just slap a bunded tank on the quayside. There are environmental regs and costs, which AIUI, is why many small rural fuel stations have closed in England.
But the margin will be whatever it takes to make it worthwhile.
There is retail mark up in road petrol, and what? an extra 10p or so at the fuel barge?

I would imagine some entrepreneurs will have some white diesel to sell you in cans, that's what would happen in any place with a 'can do' attitude, like say Africa, maybe the Scots will just moan.

The mark up on petrol is between 20 and 30 pence and at Falmouth Haven this year petrol was £1.83 per litre!

 

[lw395]

The mark up on petrol is between 20 and 30 pence and at Falmouth Haven this year petrol was £1.83 per litre!

I've heard my local pub marks up its beer too!

Falmouth would not be making a great deal of money out of me buying 5litres for my outboard, it takes time to serve the fuel and take the money, never mind the capital cost of the pontoon etc. Some places, when I had my first boat, I suspect they made a loss on some poor chap walking down to the fuel pump to sell me 15 litres of red.

 

[duncan99210]

Last time I was boating in Scotland I took our outboard powered mobo through the Caledonian canal from Inverness and back. We used about 50l of petrol a day and needed to refuel every other day. Meant finding where there were petrol stations, walking there with the cans on a trolley as often as was required. Fort Augustus was OK, Banavie was a pain until someone stopped and gave us a lift back to the boat.
I’m quite happy to do a repeat performance looking for white diesel in future visits by sailing boat if my on board tank doesn’t hold enough to make the trip without refilling. With online maps taking the guess work out of where to go, it’s not really much of a challenge.
Large mobos looking for 500l + should not have a problem, as road tankers will be able to deliver their fuel to the quayside. It’s the in between boats, looking for 150-200l that’ll have the problems; too small to be worth a tanker without a significant price hike, too big to be suitable for refilling from cans.
Final point. Petroleum dispensing licences are granted for a specific set up. This tank, this pipeline, this dispensing pump. An additional tank, pipe run and pump will require an additional licence or at least an addition to the existing licence. This is where the additional costs lie beyond the bare costs of the new kit.

 

[KAL]

What I can’t understand is why so many people appear to have caved in and actually seem to WANT to pay more for their fuel when the boat goes nowhere a road in its life. Sure, let’s all pay more tax...not!