HMRC consultation on Red Diesel

[lw395]

Yes, well if you only use 40 litres in a year.

Seems to me that so-called sailing yachts and their owners have evolved into a mode of using a lot of diesel. Back in the old days, people used a lot less in smaller boats with smaller engines which were used less as a default and more as a backup.
It makes no odds whether it's 40 litres a year, or as with our RIB at peak times, closer to 40 litres a day being bought from a garage.

 

[Bru]

It's not about the money - red diesel has no biodiesel in it .

Not neccesarily ...

Well i do ask the supplier every time i buy it and they say no FAME.

... unless it is FAME free.

Otherwise it almost certainly has FAME in it because it will often be the same basic low sulphur diesel oil but with the marker and without all the additives (anti-foaming agents, detergents etc.) as forecourt "white" diesel (although this can vary depending on the wholesaler who supplies the retailer)

... it is unlikely to be economical for them to install additional pumps and tanks to supply white diesel to a small number of leisure customers.

A 1500l bunded plastic tank, meterered pump and hose can be bought new from less than £1500 upwards. A 2500l tank is only a couple of hundred more. The "uneconomic" excuse has been done to death by the BMIF etc, and simply doesn't hold water (or diesel)

 

[[70521]]

Yes, well if you only use 40 litres in a year.

Well that is current consumption. I'll let you know what it is in 2022 with a circumnavigation of the British Isles, with a slight diversion to the Faroe Islands, planned.

 

[MM5AHO]

"A 1500l bunded plastic tank, meterered pump and hose can be bought new from less than £1500 upwards. A 2500l tank is only a couple of hundred more. The "uneconomic" excuse has been done to death by the BMIF etc, and simply doesn't hold water (or diesel) "

But there's a bit more work than that. It must be a bunded tank, the hose needs running down a pontoon to somewhere accessible to the boats, power supply to arrange etc. Perhaps we could say £4k total?
Now what's the margin on this fuel? Perhaps 5p/litre.? So at 5p/litre, need to sell 80,000 litres to break even. Typical boat tank perhaps 80 litres? So 1000 boats filled from empty, or 2000 boats half filled. That's about 10 boats a day for the summer.
All sounds a bit thin to me - not that attractive an investment.

 

[oldgit]

highly unlikely that a cash strapped Treasury is going wave good bye to any possibilty of a little extra income ?

 

[duncan99210]

First off, white diesel doesn’t kill engines. Throughout the rest of the world, diesel is supplied to boats that is identical to that supplied to the road petrol station network. In Greece for example, most town quays have a mini tanker which delivers fuel to boats that has been drawn from the local petrol station’s tanks. The same tankers also deliver diesel as heating oil to local houses.
It’s going to be a significant change for many shoreside fuel suppliers, especially those who supply mainly commercial customers. Many will have a second tank which can be flushed through and use for white diesel but there will be many who don’t and will have to take a commercial decision based on how much white diesel they expect to sell. If they’re only flogging a few hundred litres a year, then don’t expect them to invest money in a second tank and pump.
For most sailing boat people, it’s not really going to be much of a show stopper. I currently use about 400-500 litres a year but the thought of lugging diesel to the boat in jerrycans doesn’t worry me much: a couple of cans a visit won’t break my back and will more than keep pace with the expected usage. Just have to plan storage space for couple more cans on long trips so I can refuel from roadside stations when needed.
This is going to have more of an effect on motor boats using tens of litres per hour than it is on sailing boats, which even under motor use a small fraction of that sort of figure. However, fuel wholesalers with small tankers may well be able to fill this niche: where it wouldn’t be worth while sending a tanker to a quay side to sell a few tens of litres to a yacht, sending the same tanker to meet a motor boat wanting a few hundred litres is a much more doable proposition.

 

[[70521]]

Does the engine run better on white diesel?
Do you get better fuel economy ?

Difficult to say about fuel economy as my use is very small.

She does run smoother once warmed up. Recently I had to motor sailed from Plymouth to Falmouth with very light winds on the nose. She is quieter and less smokey than I've seen in the past.

I am convinced the the bug problem I had was because of low turn over of red at the garage that I bought it from. Since then the whole fuel system has been steam cleaned or replaced up to the primary filter.

I work with several amazing mechanics who work on a lot of plant machinery ranging from small engines to huge ones and they all say put the best fuel you can afford from a reliable source into your tank.

 

[Old Harry]

Can anyone really justify taxing diesel for a leisure yacht less than diesel for someone to drive a car to work?

At present we are still in the EU. If/when we leave, we are likely to be in some sort of transition for a few years, and after that, who knows? Maybe some sort of formal alignment of rules, but even without that, rules are tending to converge between neighbouring states.

I think it's a done deal and no good will come from resisting.
We've had plenty of warning, the transitional system has been abused by people claiming to use lots of fuel for heating, the current position is heavy on paperwork.

like button
this has been on the cards for years & has been fudged by hmrc & the rya

 

[NormanS]

Most yotties in Scotland presumably drive cars fuelled by white fuel?
Maybe people will go back to treating engines as auxillary to the sails and only use quantities of fuel which can reasonably be bought in cans? I'm sure where there's a need there will be an entrepreneurial Scot offering the goods, and a stereotype scot moaning about the price.
It seems that Ireland is going the same way, no green diesel after January 2020?

Yes, I drive a car in Scotland. So what? I fail to see the relevance of your statement.
What does that have to do with the nonavailability of white diesel at the quayside?

 

[Champagne Murphy]

October last year


I sent an email yesterday to the Harbour Master at Ramsgate. Here is his reply, self explanatory really.

Good morning Karl

Thank you for your enquiry.

We presently serve three fuels for leisure vessels at Ramsgate from our own fuel barge; these are FAME free red marine gas oil, white diesel (not FAME free) and unleaded petrol.

We're hoping that in line with the recent ruling, the industry will soon be in a position to be able to provide FAME free white diesel.
Kind regards



Robert Brown.



Harbour Master & Marine Operations Manager
Read more at http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthrea...-red-diesel-BEWARE/page42#IVEHBSRi9jjZ9gBH.99

 

[lw395]

Yes, I drive a car in Scotland. So what? I fail to see the relevance of your statement.
What does that have to do with the nonavailability of white diesel at the quayside?

You don't have to buy fuel at the quayside. You can buy it where you fill your car and carry it to the boat.
The main reason no white diesel is available at the quayside is that there is no market for it while everyone buys red.

 

[Old Harry]

You don't have to buy fuel at the quayside. You can buy it where you fill your car and carry it to the boat.
The main reason no white diesel is available at the quayside is that there is no market for it while everyone buys red.

Commercial users of marked fuel will be claiming as an expense now ,so hmrc could sort this easily

 

[Deleted member 36384]

If regulations change then marinas will fit white diesel facilities. The west coast of Scotland is not that devoid of marinas. Surface mounted diesel storage and distribution facilities are only around £5k plus installation costs, hardly bank breaking. The majority of small yachts do not have large fuel tanks but probably big enough that they won't lug portable tanks around, hence there will be a demand for non marked diesel facilities.

 

[Old Harry]

If regulations change then marinas will fit white diesel facilities. The west coast of Scotland is not that devoid of marinas. Surface mounted diesel storage and distribution facilities are only around £5k plus installation costs, hardly bank breaking. The majority of small yachts do not have large fuel tanks but probably big enough that they won't lug portable tanks around, hence there will be a demand for non marked diesel facilities.

Scotland is in the remain camp so no doubt will follow the EC directive to the letter

 

[lw395]

"A 1500l bunded plastic tank, meterered pump and hose can be bought new from less than £1500 upwards. A 2500l tank is only a couple of hundred more. The "uneconomic" excuse has been done to death by the BMIF etc, and simply doesn't hold water (or diesel) "

But there's a bit more work than that. It must be a bunded tank, the hose needs running down a pontoon to somewhere accessible to the boats, power supply to arrange etc. Perhaps we could say £4k total?
Now what's the margin on this fuel? Perhaps 5p/litre.? So at 5p/litre, need to sell 80,000 litres to break even. Typical boat tank perhaps 80 litres? So 1000 boats filled from empty, or 2000 boats half filled. That's about 10 boats a day for the summer.
All sounds a bit thin to me - not that attractive an investment.

I think it is possibly worse than that, you can't just slap a bunded tank on the quayside. There are environmental regs and costs, which AIUI, is why many small rural fuel stations have closed in England.
But the margin will be whatever it takes to make it worthwhile.
There is retail mark up in road petrol, and what? an extra 10p or so at the fuel barge?

I would imagine some entrepreneurs will have some white diesel to sell you in cans, that's what would happen in any place with a 'can do' attitude, like say Africa, maybe the Scots will just moan.

 

[Bru]

"A 1500l bunded plastic tank, meterered pump and hose can be bought new from less than £1500 upwards. A 2500l tank is only a couple of hundred more. The "uneconomic" excuse has been done to death by the BMIF etc, and simply doesn't hold water (or diesel) "

But there's a bit more work than that. It must be a bunded tank, the hose needs running down a pontoon to somewhere accessible to the boats, power supply to arrange etc. Perhaps we could say £4k total?
Now what's the margin on this fuel? Perhaps 5p/litre.? So at 5p/litre, need to sell 80,000 litres to break even. Typical boat tank perhaps 80 litres? So 1000 boats filled from empty, or 2000 boats half filled. That's about 10 boats a day for the summer.
All sounds a bit thin to me - not that attractive an investment.

Note that I stated "a ... BUNDED tank", there is a whole range of economical plastic bunded tanks that can be simply dropped off the back of a lorry, plugged in and put into use

Since we can assume that there will already be a power supply to the red diesel tank the cost of providing power is not significant

Yes, some extra cost over the list price will potentially be incurred for extra hose

You're amortising the investment over one summer too. And the bulk of the sales by volume will be to motor boats who guzzle up a LOT more than 80 litres per fill!

So it takes two, three, maybe even four years to break even on a very modest investment. And?

Granted, nobody is going to get rich on it but nobody at the retail end of the business gets rich supplying fuel anyway

(And I can understand the reluctance to install additional unmarked diesel capacity whilst the nonsense of the 60/40 split on red is available too)

 

[Bru]

I think it is possibly worse than that, you can't just slap a bunded tank on the quayside..

Why not? That's what we've got at our marina. It's what they've got ina lot of other places too

The whole point of these off the shelf self contained bunded tanks is that they meet all the regulations and require no additional infrastructure other than a flat base and a power supply (if it is a powered pump, they can be supplied with manual pumps too)

 

[AngusMcDoon]

And the bulk of the sales by volume will be to motor boats who guzzle up a LOT more than 80 litres per fill!

There are very few cruising motorboatalists in the north west of Scotland. I can't recall ever having seen one in Lochinver for example. The local mobos are mostly small and outboard powered.

 

[Quandary]

There are very few cruising motorboatalists in the north west of Scotland. I can't recall ever having seen one in Lochinver for example. The local mobos are mostly small and outboard powered.

Not sure you are right there, one of the nicest fishing boat conversions I have seen was permanently berthed across the pontoon from me when I was there two weeks ago, there were several other local inboard powered mobos too. I can not see Highland council being motivated to provide white diesel at Lochinver, Kinlochbervie, Kyle or Flowerdale. They might provide a trolley that you could push up to the village if 40 litres is going to be enough but fuel provision in these smaller places tends to depend on the community providing the pumps, the massive popularity of the N. Coast 500 might help but that is very seasonal. I anticipate supply problems in the West Coast and Islands. It is surely the case that the most attractive places to go are also those least likely to have fuel provision, as for the plastic bunded tank, it will have to be big enough to hold more than a road tanker full of fuel or no one will supply it, no one is going to send a truck all the way from Inverness with just a 1000 litres of diesel.
But the simple solution would be for remote harbours to sell us red diesel at commercial prices, can not be any more complex than the 60-40 nonsense and probably about the same price.

 

[AngusMcDoon]

Not sure you are right there, one of the nicest fishing boat conversions I have seen was permanently berthed across the pontoon from me when I was there two weeks ago, there were several other local inboard powered mobos too. I can not see Highland council being motivated to provide white diesel at Lochinver, Kinlochbervie, Kyle or Flowerdale. They might provide a trolley that you could push up to the village if 40 litres is going to be enough but fuel provision in these smaller places tends to depend on the community providing the pumps, the massive popularity of the N. Coast 500 might help but that is very seasonal. I anticipate supply problems in the West Coast and Islands.
But the simple solution would be for harbours to sell us red diesel at commercial prices, can not be any more complex than the 60-40 nonsense and probably about the same price.

When I said I'd never seen one, I meant to say visiting motor boats, not resident. Mea culpa. I agree that there are some local diesel powered leisure motor boats & an occasional visitor. I'm in Lochinver at the moment, so I counted. Diesel powered motor boats : 4 residents, 0 visitors. Petrol powered motor boats : 16 residents, 0 visitors. There are also 2 trip boats here, but I guess they will continue to be allowed to use red.