Fr J Hackett
Well-Known Member
Different markets for different depth of pockets, you have already given the respective prices.
Here's a guy with some firm views
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Baggywrinkle
Well-Known Member
I think he realises he's been blindsided by the 2026 Blue Water European Yacht of The Year award, and is worried about the shift in market demand that Kraken currently doesn't cater for. His video seems to be a reaction to that.
IMO Kraken is stuck between 2 stools, it is a Bluewater Cruiser and a Luxury Cruiser at the same time .... these categories were won by the Pure 42 and the Wauquiez 55 which are completely different boats.
What he has missed IMO is that the old "Blue Water Yacht" has morphed into the modern "Luxury Cruiser" and there is a new type of boat which has replaced the older blue water designs - the "Explorer Yacht".
With this comes a new set of requirements, most of which the Kraken doesn't have. Light weight, speed, shoal draft and ability to take to the ground - which in turn benefits from shorter twin-rudders although not the reason for having them, not to mention explorer yachts tend to be built from aluminium - these are the features of an explorer yacht, something designed to go anywhere, and if need be, reduce draft to get in shallow water, and to beach safely.
The other problem is the cachet of owning a "blue water yacht" - traditional blue water designs have lost their appeal since the flood of bog standard production boats started doing both the ARC, ARC+, and the Caribbean merry-go-round. It is no longer the achievement it used to be. Production boats are regularly doing what used to be the domain of "blue water" boats, and there are constant arguments about the suitability of modern boats as a result. A bit like a Ferrari owner having to accept that he will be out accelerated by a family EV - it's a bitter pill to swallow.
Back in the 80s, crossing the Atlantic was an adventure. Now an Atlantic crossing is just an item to tick off a bucket list for a rich person. Atlantic crossings have gone the same way as climbing Everest - they have been turned into an experience you can just buy your way into ... and those with deep pockets do it with a new, or relatively new boat to avoid all the ground-up refit hassle which will slow them down getting that bucket list item - once done with the Atlantic achievement, they sell up, or ship the boat back using a delivery crew or a freighter. Tick in the box, what's next. The bragging rights for an Atlantic crossing are not what they used to be - and that upsets people who felt they had a hard-earned achievement, because it is now being handed out like smarties to people with less experience, and god forbid, production boats.
But back to Kraken, the original "blue water yacht" is dead IMO and Kraken has ended up still producing one to compete with Aluminium explorer yachts. Kraken is basically a done over, big heavy 80s design at the end of the day, built in GRP ... a very nice boat for those who want that sort of thing, but it is not an "Explorer Yacht" and never will be.
There was no way Kraken was going to win the Blue Water category against aluminium explorer yachts, and the classic Luxury Cruisers are more than enough for circumnavigations, as well as many being very well established brands. Here the Kraken is unremarkable - which has left a confused old man making videos fuming about modern boats because he can't understand why the blue water market has split ... some who want to go extreme (explorer yacht) and some who want to just circumnavigate in style (luxury cruiser). Kraken is not the obvious choice for either category.
Unfortunately for him, the ability to sail fast, take to the ground, reduce draft and being purpose built out of aluminium is worth more than a skeg and an encapsulated keel to the modern blue water sailor (or explorer as they now want to be seen).
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flaming
Well-Known Member
Well maybe.
But if the AWB people had more money would they buy a Kraken or a fast cruiser? Evidence at the moment is pointing towards the latter. New yards for fast cruisers are being announced all the time, and yards like pogo, jpk etc have multi year waiting lists. Yards making big heavy stuff have been going bust at a steady rate.
Fr J Hackett
Well-Known Member
It all remains to be seen but look at his delivery trip nothing to complain about and I would bet it would have been a lot more comfortable than in a low displacement fast cruiser.
flaming
Well-Known Member
No, there's literally nothing to complain about. That's my whole point! There are light fast long distance cruisers and (for those with loadsamoney) heavy cruisers.
But the Kraken guy is complaining that the whole industry isn't following his lead....
geem
Well-Known Member
I was referring to people ocean sailing, routinely. Around the world sailors particularly. Cruisers not racers that will spend days at sea and value comfort over the undesirable hull that want to surf on every way. Its tiring for days on end.
geem
Well-Known Member
I had dinner on a little Harbour 75 last week. An extraordinary yacht. The quality of everything in that boat is amazing.
flaming
Well-Known Member
Yes, and that is EXACTLY what boats like the JPK45FC, the Pegasus 50, Pogos etc, etc etc are designed SPECIFICALLY TO DO. Ocean crossing. Being at sea for days... But still able to sail reasonably fast. That was LITERALLY THE DESIGN BRIEF. And those yards have huge waiting lists, so they clearly have found a formula that people want.
Numerous JPK FC types have completed Atlanitc circuits, including sailing back across West - East. Other are off in the Pacific on extended RTW cruises, some have been to the far north or far south.
Have a look at the photos of where JPK45s have got to for example....
JPK 45 FC - Un voilier pensé pour le grand voyage
I have no idea why you seem utterly unable to accept that some, some note, not all, sailors prefer faster boats to do the sort of sailing you do.
geem
Well-Known Member
Its not all about the sailing. When you arrive, its nice to have some creature comforts. We met a couple with a large Pogo here a few weeks ago. They have a tiny rubber dinghy, egg whisk engine, no proper shade in the cockpit, very little in the way of toys onboard. No paddleboard, no solar, all in the name of keeping the boat light. Cruising in the tropics isn't all about boat speed. The boat is a home. It needs to perform like one.
The boats you mentioned aren't run of the mill production boats. They are high end performance boats. I may be sailing a Pegasus 50 across the pond next year
ylop
Well-Known Member
He doesn’t really mean that - he’s making money from claiming to be different. If the production boat companies did it, he’d have to justify their cost on even more subjective stuff like build quality and finishing.
flaming
Well-Known Member
Pogo are more extreme than the others for sure. Plenty of space for toys and plenty of shade on both the JPK and the Pegasus, just for example.
But AGAIN, you miss that the Pogo is a choice, and like every single boat, or part of boat, it is a compromise. And as such it is a choice that the people who buy it make. Doesn't stop it being designed for, and suitable for, ocean crossing.
The fact that the compromises necessary to make the most of its performance are ones that you wouldn't make just makes it a poor choice FOR YOU. Not an unsuitable boat for the purpose it was designed for.
Fr J Hackett
Well-Known Member
I don't think he is he is wondering why the hell you would call the Pure 42 an expedition bluewater cruiser I think he is happy enough with a full order book plus enquiries and almost certainly recognises that there isn't a big enough market for many like a Kraken as Baggy points out he is effectively competing with the Oyster type market and doing it well enough.
Fr J Hackett
Well-Known Member
An Atlantic circuit is not what the Kraken is designed to do like geem says they are for extended world cruising no seasonal cruising between the Caribbean and Med. I wonder how many owners did the West East crossing and how many enjoyed it as you yourself have said most employ a delivery agency or freight it back. The Kraken was showing good light air speeds at very moderate angle of heel compared to the Pure which was almost on its ear. Plus it will carry its canvas well and plough on I rather suspect that the Pure will be on very reduced sail area once you start to get into 30 knots and be very uncomfortable as well. We will have to see if they ever show it in heavy conditions.
Fr J Hackett
Well-Known Member
You mean hard work whilst you are sailing there and uncomfortable when you get there.
geem
Well-Known Member
I don't disagree, bit they aren't run of the mill production boats that others on here suggest are perfect for crossing oceans. They are high end the starting price of a Pegasus 50 is more than double the cost and some of a similar sized Beneteau
Baggywrinkle
Well-Known Member
.. and here he is on the MCP 68 Global Expedition, not much different in size to a Little Harbour 75 ... an aluminium explorer yacht which is the same concept that cost Kraken their Blue Water Yacht of the Year 2026. Swing keel, twin rudders, aluminium deck saloon yacht with some serious offshore credentials.
If I had the money, this would be my choice, or something with a similar design brief.
And the boat that beat Kraken to the Blue Water prize?
Dick Beaumont is an opinionated old geezer with a vested interest in persuading people that modern designs are not up to the job, he's bet his business on an 80s design after all, and seems to be persuading enough people for his business to stay afloat (pun intended).
flaming
Well-Known Member
No, you've got that wrong. Nobody has ever said that run of the mill production boats are "perfect" for crossing Oceans. Literally everyone would agree that a higher quality boat would be better if you could afford it. It's a total straw man to argue that. Essentially nobody would, if offered their choice of the Beneteau the Kraken and the Pegasus for Ocean cruising, choose the Beneteau on anything other than cost grounds.
What is often argued against is the view that is often held, and articulated by mr Kraken, that you are dicing with your life if you go world cruising in an AWB. Obviously that is nonsense. His statement on keels falling off for example is utter tripe. But even he wasn't really comparing his boat with the Beneteau. He was comparing it with the other things in the Bluewater criteria of the YOTY competition. Which are also definitely not AWBs. But instead high end boats with a different design approach. One that he quite plainly has an issue with.
What's being discussed here is if "Heavy and traditional" is the only sensible way to go Ocean cruising, which mr Kraken would have you belive. Or if "light, nimble and well engineered" is also a good option. And clearly it is, as quite clearly plenty of people are buying that sort of boat and doing exactly that. Just look at the photos on the JPK website.
geem
Well-Known Member
I don't think he is arguing that heavy and traditional is the way to go. He is offering a new boat with a more secure keel design.
He has a sensible point about bulb keels for ocean sailing. I don't necessarily agree with everything he says and he is a salesman for his own brand.
I did like his comment about the boats at the show only focusing on interiors and not even showing you the keel.
I am never said heavy and traditional is the only way to go sailing. I have said that a true bluewater boat is a far better proposition than a run of the mill production boat if you are going to do multiple ocean crossing, especially if you are not on the milk run to the Caribbean every time.
Clearly a Pegasus 50 isn't a run of the mill production boat. Either way, you are spending north of £1.5M for a 50 footer. Pegasus or Kraken. Its not your average Beneteau
geem
Well-Known Member
That's a pig ugly boat! I don't want one
flaming
Well-Known Member
I have no idea how you can argue that after watching the video... Literally everything he says is imperative comes with a large weight penalty.
The reason the boats at the show in this size range don't bring the keels if they don't have to should be obvious to anyone with a brain. The simple logistics of moving a 50+ footer by road to a big shed in Dusseldorf are significantly easier if it is lower to the trailer and about 8 tonnes lighter. Surely it's not beyond the wit of a motivated buyer to ask to see a picture of the keel... And they'd all be displaying drawing anyway.... What do you actually gain by seeing the keel over a drawing of the underwater profile anyway? Of all his arguments I thought that one was by far and away the most facile.