Here's a guy with some firm views

[geem]

I have no idea how you can argue that after watching the video... Literally everything he says is imperative comes with a large weight penalty.

The reason the boats at the show in this size range don't bring the keels if they don't have to should be obvious to anyone with a brain. The simple logistics of moving a 50+ footer by road to a big shed in Dusseldorf are significantly easier if it is lower to the trailer and about 8 tonnes lighter. Surely it's not beyond the wit of a motivated buyer to ask to see a picture of the keel... And they'd all be displaying drawing anyway.... What do you actually gain by seeing the keel over a drawing of the underwater profile anyway? Of all his arguments I thought that one was by far and away the most facile.

What do you mean by traditional? Most people would think long keel.
Here is a photo of Kraken 50.
Doesn't look very traditional to me

 

[Baggywrinkle]

I don't think he is arguing that heavy and traditional is the way to go.

... er ... yes he does. He's on record as arguing modern designs are "trends" or "fashion".... He is Mr. Oldtimer .... the worrying thing is that @flaming can explain why these modern designs work from a sailing perspective, but Mr. Beaumont either doesn't understand it, or is doubling down on his "beliefs" that it's just about an encapsulated keel and a skeg hung rudder - those are the unique selling points of Kraken - he's even named them the Zero Keel and the Alpha Rudder. The fact that his boat ended up in a category competing against 3 aluminium explorer yachts, and subsequently lost, has obviously shaken him. Only time will tell if his beliefs are supported by enough paying customers. He's survived so far, but his competition are the other "luxury cruisers", not the explorer yachts he lost the award to.

Dick Beaumont | Kraken Yachts: “Yes unfortunately, this is a trend we have seen exploding in recent years. As any marine architect will tell you, one can create stability through ballast at the end of a keel or through “form stability”, where extremely wide hulls help to create the stability and provides the large flat aft sections needed for a hull to plane. Now this of course is very important for a racing boat in the Vendee Globe or The Volvo Ocean race. The twin rudder set up has therefore become extremely fashionable and we have now seen twin rudders appearing across the industry. Obviously, none of these heavy cruisers are ever going to plane, but the super wide hulls that require twin rudders do sell boats at boat shows due to their enormous internal volume. There is also the inescapable fact that building a boat without the complexity of appendages is significantly cheaper. However, cost and weight saving on the hull build specification and following fashions is a dangerous path to take for a bluewater cruising boat. Certainly, these are features that will never be seen on a Kraken.”

Nearing Zero Risk: Kraken Yachts – no-frills-sailing.com

The other point is, boat shows are about generating good press and putting on a show. With the keel removed, not only is it easier to transport, Joe Public gets a better impression of what the boat looks like at anchor or in the water, instead of staring up at the bottom of a hull, which all look the same anyway. He can't really be assuming that someone paying multiple hundreds of thousands for a new boat will not know what the underwater profile looks like .... can he? Does he really believe buyers are that stupid?

I guess what really upsets him though, is that he needs to show Joe Public his "Zero Keel" and "Alpha Rudder" as they are his USPs, but no-one else sees that as a boat-show priority.

 

[ylop]

I guess what really upsets him though, is that he needs to show Joe Public his "Zero Keel" and "Alpha Rudder" as they are his USPs, but no-one else sees that as a boat-show priority.

It would be quite easy to do some very clever marketing if you really believed in this - plonk a boat on the stand shopped off at the waterline - ignore the deck and interior just bring the bit that matters the stuff below the gunwhale. You would stand out.

Of course if you were really passionate about that and saving the world from the unsuitable you could also break the trend and make smaller boats so your message reaches more people. I wonder how many people buying 58’ boats are actually heading off to do the sort of adventure he sells and how many just want to be able to tell their yacht club friends that they bought a “real blue water boat”. The market for people who actually want to sail tough conditions and have the money for such a boat must be limited - since in my head latter opportunity grows with age and the former tends to dwindle? I suspect he’s selling boats to early retirees for journeys they wished they had made rather than being chained to a desk earning money to afford the boat they no longer need!

Only time will tell if his beliefs are supported by enough paying customers. He's survived so far, but his competition are the other "luxury cruisers", not the explorer yachts he lost the award to.

My wife watched a video with him a year or two ago. She made an interesting observation: “people don’t buy his boats for the keel and the rudder etc, they buy them because he is so strongly opinionated about the keel and the rudder”.

 

[dunedin]

I was referring to people ocean sailing, routinely. Around the world sailors particularly. Cruisers not racers that will spend days at sea and value comfort over the undesirable hull that want to surf on every way. Its tiring for days on end.

So one set of objective data is the fleet list on the World ARC - for 2025-26 of the 26 boats the most common brand (5) was HR, but next was Jeanneau (4), as well as a sistership Beneteau. Quite a few cats of differnt brands.
As the World ARC goes to a timetable, they typically spend more time sailing, and sometimes in less than perfect weather, compared to the solo cruisers.
Last year I chatted to a couple who did the World ARC 2024-2025 (actually I think they might have split it 2023-2025) - they were on a Beneteau. Had a long chat about their experience. They never once mentioned any concern about their type of boat - though of course did have plenty of time spent repairing water makers etc, the usual “boat maintenance in interesting places”

So a lot more Jeanneau and HRs circumnavigating than Krakens

 

[dunedin]

I was referring to people ocean sailing, routinely. Around the world sailors particularly. Cruisers not racers that will spend days at sea and value comfort over the undesirable hull that want to surf on every way. Its tiring for days on end.

So one set of objective data is the fleet list on the World ARC - for 2025-26 of the 26 boats the most common brand (5) was HR, but next was Jeanneau (4), as well as a sistership Beneteau. Quite a few cats of differnt brands.
As the World ARC goes to a timetable, they typically spend more time sailing, and sometimes in less than perfect weather, compared to the solo cruisers.
Last year I chatted to a couple who did the World ARC 2024-2025 (actually I think they might have split it 2023-2025) - they were on a Beneteau. Had a long chat about their experience. They never once mentioned any concern about their type of boat - though of course did have plenty of time spent repairing water makers etc, the usual “boat maintenance in interesting places”

So a lot more Jeanneau and HRs circumnavigating than Krakens

 

[geem]

... er ... yes he does. He's on record as arguing modern designs are "trends" or "fashion".... He is Mr. Oldtimer .... the worrying thing is that @flaming can explain why these modern designs work from a sailing perspective, but Mr. Beaumont either doesn't understand it, or is doubling down on his "beliefs" that it's just about an encapsulated keel and a skeg hung rudder - those are the unique selling points of Kraken - he's even named them the Zero Keel and the Alpha Rudder. The fact that his boat ended up in a category competing against 3 aluminium explorer yachts, and subsequently lost, has obviously shaken him. Only time will tell if his beliefs are supported by enough paying customers. He's survived so far, but his competition are the other "luxury cruisers", not the explorer yachts he lost the award to.



Nearing Zero Risk: Kraken Yachts – no-frills-sailing.com

The other point is, boat shows are about generating good press and putting on a show. With the keel removed, not only is it easier to transport, Joe Public gets a better impression of what the boat looks like at anchor or in the water, instead of staring up at the bottom of a hull, which all look the same anyway. He can't really be assuming that someone paying multiple hundreds of thousands for a new boat will not know what the underwater profile looks like .... can he? Does he really believe buyers are that stupid?

I guess what really upsets him though, is that he needs to show Joe Public his "Zero Keel" and "Alpha Rudder" as they are his USPs, but no-one else sees that as a boat-show priority.

Traditional with long keel you mean?

 

[dunedin]

I was referring to people ocean sailing, routinely. Around the world sailors particularly. Cruisers not racers that will spend days at sea and value comfort over the undesirable hull that want to surf on every way. Its tiring for days on end.

…bad WiFi double posted

 

[Fr J Hackett]

It would be quite easy to do some very clever marketing if you really believed in this - plonk a boat on the stand shopped off at the waterline - ignore the deck and interior just bring the bit that matters the stuff below the gunwhale. You would stand out.

Of course if you were really passionate about that and saving the world from the unsuitable you could also break the trend and make smaller boats so your message reaches more people. I wonder how many people buying 58’ boats are actually heading off to do the sort of adventure he sells and how many just want to be able to tell their yacht club friends that they bought a “real blue water boat”. The market for people who actually want to sail tough conditions and have the money for such a boat must be limited - since in my head latter opportunity grows with age and the former tends to dwindle? I suspect he’s selling boats to early retirees for journeys they wished they had made rather than being chained to a desk earning money to afford the boat they no longer need!

My wife watched a video with him a year or two ago. She made an interesting observation: “people don’t buy his boats for the keel and the rudder etc, they buy them because he is so strongly opinionated about the keel and the rudder”.

One thing you can almost guarantee is that those that buy one will not be novices most if not all will have made reasonably long passages in other boats and know what they are looking for in a boat. Whilst passage speed is important it will not be the primary concern as long as it is respectable ie approaching the 200 nautical mile a day in average conditions with a high degree of comfort.

 

[Fr J Hackett]

So one set of objective data is the fleet list on the World ARC - for 2025-26 of the 26 boats the most common brand (5) was HR, but next was Jeanneau (4), as well as a sistership Beneteau. Quite a few cats of differnt brands.
As the World ARC goes to a timetable, they typically spend more time sailing, and sometimes in less than perfect weather, compared to the solo cruisers.
Last year I chatted to a couple who did the World ARC 2024-2025 (actually I think they might have split it 2023-2025) - they were on a Beneteau. Had a long chat about their experience. They never once mentioned any concern about their type of boat - though of course did have plenty of time spent repairing water makers etc, the usual “boat maintenance in interesting places”

So a lot more Jeanneau and HRs circumnavigating than Krakens

There are a very great deal more Jeanneau and HRs than Krakens and the type of people that buy Krakens are most likely not to be the type of people that enter around the world flotillas.

 

[dunedin]

There are a very great deal more Jeanneau and HRs than Krakens and the type of people that buy Krakens are most likely not to be the type of people that enter around the world flotillas.

The World ARC is not a “RTW flotilla” - they are exposed to all the bad weather and ocean crossings that an independent is, and with added extra factor of a fixed timetable which means need to be more sturdy.
I know / have spoken to quite a few people who have done a full circuit and some who have only reached NZ so far. All chose 21st century boats and none seemed to have serious regrets about their choice - though clearly some might have wished for a bigger budget and hence bigger boat, but they went and did it with the budget they had rather than pontificating.

 

[Roberto]

So a lot more Jeanneau and HRs circumnavigating than Krakens

A couple of years ago I counted the main types of boats from the Ocean Cruising Club data base (about 3500 members at the time, 450 circumnavigators, many are couples so 2 members for one boat but of course I just counted the single boats), I have not made statistics but the numbers are quite clear. There were many catamarans too but apart from outremer and leopard I was not sure of the brands so did not count them.

By number of units it's roughly
1.Hallberg Rassy 106
2-3. Jeanneau and Beneteau, 68 each
4.Oyster 60
5. Amel 50
6.Moody 49
etc etc

Allures 8
Alubat (Ovni, Cigale) 33
Amel 50
Bavaria 25
Beneteau 68
Boreal 13
Bowman 20
Catalina 14
Contessa 10
Contest 24
Dufour 16
Garcia 8
Grand Soleil 10
HR 106
Hanse 12
Hinkley 19
Hylas 24
Island Packet 32
J-boats 23
Jeanneau 68
Moody 49
Najad 29
Nicolson 24
Oyster 60
Swan 23
Tayana 20
Westerly 34
X-yachts 14

 

[lustyd]

but they went and did it with the budget they had rather than pontificating.

The fools! They ought to have spent years on a forum weighing up options...

 

[Baggywrinkle]

What do you mean by traditional? Most people would think long keel.
Here is a photo of Kraken 50.
Doesn't look very traditional to me

View attachment 205961View attachment 205962

Yey! ... Kraken have built a homage to the Oyster 53 from 20 years ago ....



... traditional in the sense of the hull and underwater appendages, no chines, moderate beam (3,8m at the waterline for a 50ft boat), rounded hull, single, full length skeg with unbalanced rudder, encapsulated keel with greater volume and wetted area, and shaft drive.

 

[geem]

Yey! ... Kraken have built a homage to the Oyster 53 from 20 years ago ....

View attachment 205968View attachment 205969

... traditional in the sense of the hull and underwater appendages, no chines, moderate beam (3,8m at the waterline for a 50ft boat), rounded hull, single, full length skeg with unbalanced rudder, encapsulated keel with greater volume and wetted area, and shaft drive.

Perfect

 

[Tranona]

The oceans are increasingly full of discarded fishing net gear. We used to tow a Duogen hydro generator. Twice we have had it damaged from discarded fishing nets mid Atlantic. This is one of the reasons why we no longer use one. If you are plowing across an ocean, the last thing you want is a T keel.
You really think the average production boat is superior to a Kranken
Its about money. If everybody had infinite funds, there would be a lot more Kraken sail boats about and far less cheap production boats crossing ocean

Did I not say that I do not like T keels for this reason ?- although I don't have any evidence to support that from the point of view of catching debris. I have not been directly involved in this little segment of the boating world since they became common, but in the 30 years that I was I got a pretty fair picture of how boats were affected by catching debris and can say that no configuration is immune - see post#9 for details.

I have also never said that mass produced boats are superior - or even equal to a Kraken (get your spelling right) nor even other more expensive bespoke boats. All I am saying (in general and little to do with my objection to Beaumont's diatribe) is that people use production boats for bluewater cruising and they seem satisfied with them. Even (according to post#11 25% or so of your elite OCC members owning monohulls have chosen French or German mass produced boats, and a further 10% have chosen French boats that do not meet your definition of a bluewater boat. As an aside it would be interesting to see the nationality of the members who own the boats listed.

It is not all about money. Many of the latest style boats like the Pure 42 are in the same price bracket as the Kraken size for size. It seems that folks with the odd £1m to spend on a bluewater boat mostly prefer the modern style and builders such as HR are moving the same way as otherwise they will lose to the smaller bespoke builders.

 

[geem]

Did I not say that I do not like T keels for this reason ?- although I don't have any evidence to support that from the point of view of catching debris. I have not been directly involved in this little segment of the boating world since they became common, but in the 30 years that I was I got a pretty fair picture of how boats were affected by catching debris and can say that no configuration is immune - see post#9 for details.

I have also never said that mass produced boats are superior - or even equal to a Kraken (get your spelling right) nor even other more expensive bespoke boats. All I am saying (in general and little to do with my objection to Beaumont's diatribe) is that people use production boats for bluewater cruising and they seem satisfied with them. Even (according to post#11 25% or so of your elite OCC members owning monohulls have chosen French or German mass produced boats, and a further 10% have chosen French boats that do not meet your definition of a bluewater boat. As an aside it would be interesting to see the nationality of the members who own the boats listed.

It is not all about money. Many of the latest style boats like the Pure 42 are in the same price bracket as the Kraken size for size. It seems that folks with the odd £1m to spend on a bluewater boat mostly prefer the modern style and builders such as HR are moving the same way as otherwise they will lose to the smaller bespoke builders.

I am glad you are coming around to my way of thinking

 

[Baggywrinkle]

I am glad you are coming around to my way of thinking

I really admire how you've mastered the tone of authority, without the inconvenience of depth and how you don't let evidence interfere with your opinions .... well done that man

 

[Tranona]

I really admire how you've mastered the tone of authority, without the inconvenience of depth and how you don't let evidence interfere with your opinions .... well done that man

Yes, seems to be a a member of a dying breed in more ways than one. Stuck in the past and impervious to what is happening around him.

As a matter of interest I looked up this fabled OCC (based in Dartmouth, Devon) and as you can see from their own material of their "Ocean Cruising Types of People" all bar 2 are British and are dead, some for over 50 years. Tells you a lot about how representative they are of the ocean cruising population. On the boat front in addition to the analysis above 25% of the boats owned by members were built by (British) builders who have not built anything for over 25 years. Although they do not give the age of the boats in the table in Roberto's post I would not be surprised if a majority of the boats were over 25 years old. Doubt their members will be on the mailing list of today's builders of bluewater boats (except maybe Kraken). oceancruisingclub.org/About-the-OCC

 

[geem]

I really admire how you've mastered the tone of authority, without the inconvenience of depth and how you don't let evidence interfere with your opinions .... well done that man

Thanks

 

[flaming]

Yachting world seem to think the Pure 42 is a capable go anywhere boat....