HELP - What to do when an engineer causes further damage?

[MY littlebirchwoo]

Here is my dilemma, or rather a question, who is liable? And furthermore, what do I do now?

I returned to the UK after working abroad in May and in order to have full enjoyment of my boat during my leave I had arranged for the boat to be lifted and necessary servicing work to be done. Just before I returned, the head engineer left the company and told me it was for personal reasons and I do not wish to speculate why etc, but as the boat had already been lifted by the other company I, in my absence, arranged for the work to be split with the engineer doing the vital outdrive work as he is now working for himself.

It was reported that the outdrive had a split bellow on inspection and my response was to ask that the outdrive be removed in order to ascertain of the gimbal bearing etc required replacement. The boat was on fresh water at the time and the engineer completed the work, refitting new bellows etc and charged me whopping amount of money, however, he did state that the bearing was inspected and felt that it was fine (despite the fact that the water had knackered the starter motor)

Upon putting back into the water it was evident that a second problem hadn’t been fixed and a second lift was required and again, the outdrive was removed and again, the engineer was asked by both myself and my partner if the bearing was OK and should it not be changed? Again he said not to worry it would be fine, fixed the other problem (Not engaging in gear properly) and it went back in…

… So our first trip out after the service and to sea, a 40 mile journey and a sharp change in engine note is heard and we limp into port to find water running freely into the bilge through the starter motor – an emergency lift where we found the bellows completely stripped and the wire from inside the bellows wrapped around the UJ… Engineer called to come and sort it (As I would have thought this was a warranty issue) Upon removal the flywheel cover plate is smashed and bits of bearing rolling around – even his ‘helper’ says “The bearing is all broken” although a little while later (Obviously coached at this point by the Engineer, he changed his tune!) Oh and I am photographing everything at this point. The engineer then claims ‘Underwater Obstruction’ so our insurers are called who task a surveyor… he takes one look and says categorically not!.. Engineer takes starter motor away to clean up (For a second time) ..Insurance company doesn’t want to know saying I am not covered for this (Takes nearly three weeks for them to get back to me and handled disgustingly despite having a VERY good reputation). To cut a long story short, bits are ordered and all work redone except he declares the UJ bearings are fine, despite myself, another Volvo engineer who we asked to oversee what was going on and another person saying “You must do this” he says "not to worry, the bearings are fine, freely moving and have no play in them"… we go out on sea trial…guess what…vibration I ask “What’s that” He says something must be around prop.. I say "no as not in drive…" lifted again and as suspected, the bearings in the UJ haven’t just smashed up, the uj has subsequently been ripped to pieces under load..

So apart from the month that I had leave being totally lost, we have paid everything, I have sent the details to the ‘legal expenses cover’ company but hold absolutely no hope as their first words to me were “Well we really are more concerned with injury rather than fault claims and this isn’t a large claim” But now I have a bill from the engineer, despite, as I see it, having forked out many thousands (finally using another company) to repair the work that he should have done properly more than once… Incidentally the starter motor – when pulled apart it became evident that he had only ‘squirted it full of WD 40' and was so badly damaged by corrosion and influx of debris that it is a write off… so we paid twice for that to be ‘stripped and cleaned’ and obviously wasn’t done!)

Now do I;

1. Hope the legal expenses company help
2. Go back to my insurers and demand they do more for me in this instance
3. Bill the engineer for what I have incurred and then some and then take him to court for money he probably doesn’t have
4. Something else

I really have no idea what to do as the expenses have now far out-weighed our savings and our boat fund, and sadly will mean that we now have to consider whether we keep the boat or sell at a loss to negate further losses. We have done nothing wrong in this matter. We took out every option on our marine insurance, we paid for necessary work to be done professionally, we even bailed out the engineer by buying the parts ourselves due to the high cost of them – I trust NO engineer anymore as I continually hear horror stories form everywhere in this area and from now on will be doing all service and repair work myself.

Sadly nothing I can do will replace the time lost with my family upon return home (From Afghanistan by the way) before I go back to work, but some direction in how to get our money back would be most welcomed.

 

[volvopaul]

This forum at the moment seems all too full of tales about bad marine companies and engineers, it seems many so called marine engineers take on jobs they no little or understand about, yet take money off people for little or no work carried out, I very rarely ask or money upfront on any jobs no matter what the price, yet dealers insist on payment upfront and deposits for re engineing work, sometimes even the whole cost if the boats not on there premises.

You need to find out how liquid the engineer is before you spend money chasing him for money he may not even have,you sond like you have a mercruiser/yamaha/or volvo sx type drive, ther very simple units to maintain with the right tools, and gimball bearings are a must fit after any water ingress/bellows failure, you also said you had water coming in the starter motor hole, well if its a merc then the seal that the shaft runs on must have been damaged when he refitted the drive, if the bellows splits water will enter the boat through a very small drilling in the shield thats there for the one and only reason, to tell you the bellows has gone.

As to why he kept insisting the gimball bearing was ok only tells me he hasnt got a clue or the puller to extract it from the shield as once out and cleaned up there easy to fit.

Id try your insurers for help, then for everyone elses sake tell us who you employed!!!

 

[MY littlebirchwoo]

Just for ref, they are Volvo engines with DP-E drives... I didnt mention the removal of the flywheel in order to clean the ring gear or changing the drive plate - all which COULD have been done when the engine was lifted out to replace the flywheel cover plate!!!! (Which you have to do to change the gimbal bearing also on this type of engine as the jack shaft will only come out if the flywheel cover is removed... engine requires craning back on mountings and turbo requires removal and refitting!!!!)

Really not knowing what to do now... the engineer was the head engineer of a 'volvo approved' repairer for many years previously and so until now have had absolute trust in him.....

I don't want to go into anymore specifics as those who know me and the area in which I operate will also know everyone concerned and the case in particular, and due to the SLIM chance that the legal expenses company do come good, I do not wish to prejudice any involvement in their part, however I cannot tell you how REALLY disappointed I haveeen with my insurers who I had to ring and email numerous times before I got someone to read the report and make a decision, which he did on the phone whilst reading - and he could have told me that two weeks before hand - saving me more money and heartache - sadly I think I'll end up having to pay this engineer for the invoice that he has issued regardless as it seems that as soon as you put the word 'Marine' into any sentence, the law seems not to operate as it would if it were a car, truck, aeroplane or even a bloomin lawn mower!

 

[volvopaul]

Ahh so you dont mean gimball bearing as it doesnt have one, you mean the jackshaft support bearing in the bellhousing, which to be fair can only be checked for up and down movement when the drive is off, these rarely fail unless prolonged to years of sea water after the seal has disintegrated allowing sea water in and past the bearing as its broken up, in your case probably due to id say 99% has failed due to a poor if not non existent maintainance schedule.

You stated sea water pouring in on your first trip out so clearly the bearing had failed and broken up which in turn has allowed the uj and upper gear train of the drive to ossilate causing the damage you have, id also be stripping the drive down to look at the upper support bearings in the upper gearbox and cone etc, has the uj damaged the bellhousing where the bellows clips on? as a uj failure usually takes that out too!

 

[MY littlebirchwoo]

Firstly the drives have been on and off the boat regularly during its life and seviced regularly, however, on this service the engineer was specifically tasked to examine this bearing - which he himself calls the 'gimbal bearing', however, I was prepared to accept it may not have been obvious and thats why, until the UJ smashed up, I was prepared to carry on with him, however why wouldnt he change the UJ bearings when this was bought up?

I had the drive rebuilt by another engineer who had a good look at the upper gearbox and although there was a very slight scrape on the inside of the housing it was luckily pretty much intact as the UJ hadnt gone until taken on the seatrial and literally as sson as it happened the engine was shut down and bought back in on the other

So are you saying, in your opinion, that the engineer has done nothing wrong?

 

[volvopaul]

Id say he has missed something for further damage to occur but you must be clear in you own mind what has caused the failure as you will be asked to account all this in a specific order, in order to try and claim against him if the case arises, you must also be sure in what parts are actually called as I very often find that solicitors, clerks and pen pushers have not got a clue about aything mechanical, they are solely guided by you the boat owner, they are the ones that make the decisions based purely on what info you give them, more like the chicken and egg situation.

I can tell you now ive been acting for a boat owner for over a year now over a wrongly diagnosed engine fault which led to a rebuild for it to fail after a hand full of hours, thishes been going back and forth from both legal sides for over 13 months, for both legal sides to now ask myself and there surveyor to agree on a solution!!! wha a waste of time and money, just to givceyou an idea what you may be up against.

 

[Tranona]

You have to ask some basic questions (ignoring the technicalities of what failed) - the law is the same for marine work as for any other consumer exchange.

You need to determine who your contract was with and what it was for so that you can determine who is liable if there is any dispute (as in this case) about whether it was done correctly.

It is doubtful that your boat insurance will cover it. Normally insurance is for accidental damage, whether caused by third parties or yourself, not for disputes involving work you commissioned. If any insurance is involved here it is more likely to be the engineers professional indemnity insurance (if he has any).

To get redress you have to prove that he was negligent, gave bad advice and did not do the job properly and that you have suffered material loss. All this seems to be the case - however, your difficulty will be in proving it. Often it ends up with your word against his, or more likely the word of your expert witness against his professional opinion. Almost certainly you will need to get a second opinion unless you can present the technical evidence yourself.

The most obvious thing to do if you have not paid is to refuse to pay and let him sue you, but it seems that you have already paid at least some, so your objective is to try and recover some of your money. Clearly going to court and employing lawyers is to be avoided, but you can get an idea of the process from downloading the guidance on making a claim through the Small claims track. This is very helpful on suggesting alternate ways of resolving disputes. Inevitably pursuing this is going to be difficult and time consuming, but there really is no alternative if he disputes your claim.

The first step when you have your evidence is to make a claim against the person you think responsible, making it clear that you intend to pursue your claim. Give him time to respond. If there is no response and there are no other avenues open such as arbitration then pursue him through the courts. The small claims route is low cost and relatively easy, but if the amount is above the limit you may find you have to take legal advice before getting into further legal action. Of course even if you get a judgement in your favour, you may still find he has no money.

Not a very satisfactory state of affairs, but the reality is that no dispute is straightforward or easy - otherwise it would not be a dispute.

 

[MY littlebirchwoo]

I have commissioned an independant report from a recognised marine engineer who definitely puts the ball in his court. Thank yo for your advice. What stuffs me is that I am fully aware that he too can walk into a county court and proceed with a judgement against me - if that happens that will be my career up the swanee so I just feel at every avenue I have been stuffed.

You mention that I am covered the same as any other walk of life, why is it then, that despite specifically asking for something to be checked, that as that component to then fail , he can hide behind the 'In my professional opinion' cloak..

Quite frankly I have been through some difficult times in my life but this episode has put so much heartache, expense and pressure on my family that I wish the boat had sank - and I'm really not joking, but becuase of my prudence of getting it lifted promptly I get nothing..

... oddly the engineers professional opinion had been that it had been an underwater strike or piece of wood that had got jammed between the bellows and steering helmet which had caused the wire to get picked up and strim the housing to pieces - not unknown after searching the internet, but firmly denied by the insurance company's surveyor, who even before looking at it had said it couldn't be the case and this is always caused by the uj oscilating due to a collapsed bearing..

As the bellows were BRAND NEW prior to this happening, and the bearing checked - there is also a possibility that the insurers have also just ducked on me also

Great thanks guys!

Then there are two more questions;
1. Why not change the spiders in the UJ or even advising that as a minimum they get changed?
2. The starter motor...cleaned.. I dont think so

Lastly a word of advice to anyone in a similar situation, don't even mention to anyone the word INSURANCE as some of the charges we have accrued have been at the published INSURANCE rates... much more than offer rates etc... Although I have to say thankyou to the marina who helped us as they were fantastic in every respect.

A few pics

SHowing wire still around the jack shaft

Strimmed housing - note wire strim marks

Showing it only takes a couple of milimetres of pressure to push the wire proud and in the way of the UJ

Lastly the remains of the Bellows which had been brand new

 

[scottie]

Paul he said the bellows were split and the starter flooded.
The water in the starter I would assume reached the starter flowing through the bearing in the housing unless the boat was internally flooded!
I would suggest that especially as the engineer was asked to examine the bearing that most people would expect him to be liable!

 

[ian38_39]

How often are the words common sense, Insurance and law tied together?

I declare that I do know of this incident and the engineer involved. I also know to another boat with an engine and leg overhaul, same engineer, eventually after 12 months of not being sorted was moved by road to another area where the Mercruiser dealer diagnosed 140+ faults, most created by the same engineer, there is also a list of dissatisfied customers with similar story's sitting with a fairly big boat builder, who were in some way connected with this engineer.

Can these cases be invoked to discredit professional opinion, which in this case does seem to be incorrect?

 

[Tranona]

You mention that I am covered the same as any other walk of life, why is it then, that despite specifically asking for something to be checked, that as that component to then fail , he can hide behind the 'In my professional opinion' cloak..

Exactly the same thing can happen with a car. I could bore you with the story of a dispute my brother had with Audi and their dealer over a failure of the transmission on his A8 due to negligent work - failing to change a small sensor that was covered in a service bulletin. Car sat rotting in the garage for 3 years before it was resolved. Man of principle (and potentially deep pockets).

As I suggested disputes are never clear cut, and as much as the law tries to create a level playing field it is regulating human behaviour so there is almost bound to be disagreement if things go wrong.

You seem to be pursuing your case in the right way - hope it turns out OK.

 

[volvopaul]

Just taken time to look at the pics, the uj must have either been pretty shot to grab the wire as there is plenty of room for the uj to spin inside the bellows, or the engineer has struggled to fit the drive and in doing so he has caught the tail of the wire and pulled it out of the rubber groove, or the shaft bearing was potentially that bad the whole assembly has floated around causing the uj to grab the wire and destroy the bellows, now if thats the case and as you have said the boat flooded then as to give an expert opinion, id say 99.9% the bearing had failed and the seal was already damaged as it alowed sea water to pass straight into the bellhousing even though you were on the move.

So lets say the bearing had gone but the uj was ok, it would still have allowed water through past the constuction of the bearing and the seal thats visible from the outside.

Where abouts are you in the uk? pm answer if you like.

 

[MY littlebirchwoo]

Have PM'd you a few specifics, however, I agree, it seems the bearing collapse was at fault.. Incidentally there had previously been evidence that water was coming through this bearing... If he had stripped the starter motor as he said he had there would have been enough evidence...

Luckily, I am anal when it comes to seervicing and cleaning bilges and bilge pumps and we didn't flood the bilge, but did have an interesting water feature in the marina!!

 

[oldgit]

For reference

Knackered bearings from older style VP O/D.What happens when water gets in.
Fortunately these were changed before any real damage was caused.

The jack shaft.

 

[Seahope]

Quite frankly I have been through some difficult times in my life but this episode has put so much heartache, expense and pressure on my family that I wish the boat had sank - and I'm really not joking, but becuase of my prudence of getting it lifted promptly I get nothing..

I'm sorry to hear of your troubles, but from my experience you may well have found yourself in an even worse situation if your boat had sunk. On the positive side this forum is frequented by a lot of professionals whose wisdom can be very helpful.

 

[rafiki_]

In order to make any sort of claim, you have to prove the negligence, and find if the individual has any sort of professional insurance. At our marina, work cannot be done unless the fitter/mechanic (they are not engineers generally) can prove they have third party insurance.

I do feel for you with these trials and tribulations, and it just emphasises the importance of etting someone trustworthy to do the work on your boat. In general, this can only be found out by asking around the marina to find other peoples experiences.

 

[MY littlebirchwoo]

The point here is that this engineer is well known and previously had a good reputation, he wasnt some fly-by as told above - what grips me is that it seems (And having spoken to many others) in this area many organisations operate on a 'tough-luck' basis with very little comeback - and judging by some of the replies it seems that some agree that there is always a way to defend this way of working

 

[rafiki_]

The point here is that this engineer is well known and previously had a good reputation, he wasnt some fly-by as told above - what grips me is that it seems (And having spoken to many others) in this area many organisations operate on a 'tough-luck' basis with very little comeback - and judging by some of the replies it seems that some agree that there is always a way to defend this way of working

As I said above, you have to prove negligence, and hard proof is necessary. Your Insurance chappy's note is useful here.

 

[DAKA]

You dont actually need to prove negligence.
You just need to convince a judge that on balance it is most likely negligence.

Insurers cave in well before that anyway and many individuals will also cave in when threatened with the facts, no point in risking costs on top of the cock up he knows he has made.

Moving onto the 'brand new Bellows' , they are covered in old oil/grease, alright they are well battered but the stainless wire appears to be covered in calcium like deposits ,indication a prolonged period of submersion...............not brand new
And the jubilee clip still attached to the boat and out of damage reach is also looking old and far from new.

show that the bellows are not brand new as charged for and you are well on your way to an open and shut case.

I 'THINK' the bellows are date embossed with date of manufacture.

 

[MY littlebirchwoo]

Moving onto the 'brand new Bellows' , they are covered in old oil/grease, alright they are well battered but the stainless wire appears to be covered in calcium like deposits ,indication a prolonged period of submersion...............not brand new
And the jubilee clip still attached to the boat and out of damage reach is also looking old and far from new.

.

Although I do agree the wire was knackered.. mainly covered in a fine aluminium powder, oil and grease.. Interestingly I've just noticed one of the balls from the ball bearing stuck inside there... sadly the bellows were BRAND NEW - I watched them being put on and have photos as the boat was lifted in the water - they were genuine volvo supplied by French Marine - so absolutely no qualm that they were not genuine and could be copies or cheapies.... and fitted at the end of May - However - looking at the photos Im sure that jubilee clip isnt in the right place?