Help specifying fire extinguishers (powder vs. foam/CO2/water mist)

dankilb said:
Thanks for the reminder of the YM Crash Test vid - the whiteout doesn't look at all appealing. At best, looks like it'd delay being able to assess what to do next and I'd always rather avoid that onboard.

I get the point that powder will put most things out - but would anyone actually buy one if, like me, you need to fully re-stock the boat and don't mind paying a few quid more for foam?

Water mist, on the other hand, is quite a bit pricier than foam/powder. And the 3L capacity seems comparatively bulky. But the YM video got me looking at videos of water mist extinguishers on various (all?) fire types and they do look very impressive:

So I'm now thinking - 1L foam for aft cabins and 2L foam in forepeak, nice 3L water mist in the saloon (maybe under the table - which was a good suggestion above), forget the CO2, and plan to fit an automatic in the engine compartment when we're ready in the future. Sound okay?
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I was advised that several smaller ones were better, you have a second chance if one fails and they are easier to man handle in a sea way.
 
paul2884 said:
I was advised that several smaller ones were better, you have a second chance if one fails and they are easier to man handle in a sea way.
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Yeah I’m going off the 3L water mist idea (having got the tape measure out and really contemplated the size!). Think I’ll go 1L, not least as it actually contains 1.4L and 10s discharge time so is hardly tiny.

Btw, the thread linked is post #33 above does have some useful extra info on the fire sticks. Not sure anyone had got as far as using one onboard though: Anyone used Fire Safety Stick as an alternative to a fire extinguisher?
 
dankilb said:
Hi all - collective wisdom sought before ordering new extinguishers throughout the boat - old ones are all powder and way out of date. Now seems a good time, as winter jobs inc. starting the engine for the first time in years, lots of wiring, and I'm wielding my new MAPP torch in anger more often!

Boat is 42ft Jeanneau with two double aft cabins (with no extra egress/escape routes) and an otherwise conventional layout. There's no dedicate engine room extinguisher (I might consider one at a later date).

I am considering purchasing the following:
  • 2 x 1L AFFF Foam for the aft cabins
  • 1 x 1L Water Mist for the saloon (mounted on the bulkhead aft of the port-side/galley)
  • 1 x 2KG CO2 - probably under the chart table (stbd side)
  • 1 x 2L AFFF Foam for the forepeak (where we sleep, and there's space, so rather have larger here!)
I do have one 2KG powder still 'in the green' on its gauge, so was thinking of keeping this in a cockpit locker, just to also have some powder on board. I've read previous forum threads on the issues with powder (damage/visibility/re-ignition/etc.), while others still argue that powder is useful for initial evacuation purposes. With this in mind, I prefer the idea of foam for 'evacuation' and then having a variety of types on board for subsequent 'fire fighting', if required. Does this sound reasonable? Or should I consider new powder extinguishers as well?

This place seem to have decent prices and free delivery >£50: Fire Safety & Fire Protection Equipment
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You will find, with a high degree of probability, that the powder cannister still works - reserve if you can stand the weight. You will also find that if you use it you may extinguish the fire, but you will certainly suffer a lot of collateral dust damage and mess. I have ditched powder.

Something for the engine compartment - foam is good. Whether it's installed alongside the engine or inserted through an inspection hole - to prevent flames spreading

Something for the galley area - foam and blanket.

That's it. How are other areas at risk - unless there's heavy smoking aboard?

Don't underrate the quenching power of fire blankets to limit oxygen and douse flames.

There is a case for a large cannister of foam in a deck locker to use when forcing a route down below.

Being able to restrain fuel for fires is vital - gas and diesel taps easy to hand. Fire gloves - gauntlet type are worth considering for obvious reasons.

I don't think you will find even commercial requirements more stringent than this. The risk of fire in a well ordered boat with only professionally installed gear, and no sentimental bits like gasoline lamps, is very low. The nearest I came to a melt down was when I left a kettle on the stove and was called off the boat, leaving the kettle going. When I remembered and rushed back, it was red hot and all the water had evaporated; a few minutes longer and that would have been that.

PWG
 
dankilb said:
Hi all - collective wisdom sought before ordering new extinguishers throughout the boat - old ones are all powder and way out of date. Now seems a good time, as winter jobs inc. starting the engine for the first time in years, lots of wiring, and I'm wielding my new MAPP torch in anger more often!

Boat is 42ft Jeanneau with two double aft cabins (with no extra egress/escape routes) and an otherwise conventional layout. There's no dedicate engine room extinguisher (I might consider one at a later date).

I am considering purchasing the following:
  • 2 x 1L AFFF Foam for the aft cabins
  • 1 x 1L Water Mist for the saloon (mounted on the bulkhead aft of the port-side/galley)
  • 1 x 2KG CO2 - probably under the chart table (stbd side)
  • 1 x 2L AFFF Foam for the forepeak (where we sleep, and there's space, so rather have larger here!)
I do have one 2KG powder still 'in the green' on its gauge, so was thinking of keeping this in a cockpit locker, just to also have some powder on board. I've read previous forum threads on the issues with powder (damage/visibility/re-ignition/etc.), while others still argue that powder is useful for initial evacuation purposes. With this in mind, I prefer the idea of foam for 'evacuation' and then having a variety of types on board for subsequent 'fire fighting', if required. Does this sound reasonable? Or should I consider new powder extinguishers as well?

This place seem to have decent prices and free delivery >£50: Fire Safety & Fire Protection Equipment
Click to expand...
You will find, with a high degree of probability, that the powder cannister still works - reserve if you can stand the weight. You will also find that if you use it you may extinguish the fire, but you will certainly suffer a lot of collateral dust damage and mess. I have ditched powder.

Something for the engine compartment - foam is good. Whether it's installed alongside the engine or inserted through an inspection hole - to prevent flames spreading

Something for the galley area - foam and blanket.

That's it. How are other areas at risk - unless there's heavy smoking aboard?

Don't underrate the quenching power of fire blankets to limit oxygen and douse flames.

There is a case for a large cannister of foam in a deck locker to use when forcing a route down below.

Being able to restrain fuel for fires is vital - gas and diesel taps easy to hand. Fire gloves - gauntlet type are worth considering for obvious reasons.

I don't think you will find even commercial requirements more stringent than this. The risk of fire in a well ordered boat with only professionally installed gear, and no sentimental bits like gasoline lamps, is very low. The nearest I came to a melt down was when I left a kettle on the stove and was called off the boat, leaving the kettle going. When I remembered and rushed back, it was red hot and all the water had evaporated; a few minutes longer and that would have been that.

PWG
 
peter gibbs said:
That's it. How are other areas at risk - unless there's heavy smoking aboard?
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D you not have any electrics aboard? I consider electrics as the primary source of ignition onboard. Once that starts a flame there is a huge amount of combustible stuff aboard, wood, paper, clothing, bedding, pyrotechnics and rope.
 
peter gibbs said:
You will find, with a high degree of probability, that the powder cannister still works - reserve if you can stand the weight. You will also find that if you use it you may extinguish the fire, but you will certainly suffer a lot of collateral dust damage and mess. I have ditched powder.

Something for the engine compartment - foam is good. Whether it's installed alongside the engine or inserted through an inspection hole - to prevent flames spreading

Something for the galley area - foam and blanket.

That's it. How are other areas at risk - unless there's heavy smoking aboard?

Don't underrate the quenching power of fire blankets to limit oxygen and douse flames.

There is a case for a large cannister of foam in a deck locker to use when forcing a route down below.

Being able to restrain fuel for fires is vital - gas and diesel taps easy to hand. Fire gloves - gauntlet type are worth considering for obvious reasons.

I don't think you will find even commercial requirements more stringent than this. The risk of fire in a well ordered boat with only professionally installed gear, and no sentimental bits like gasoline lamps, is very low. The nearest I came to a melt down was when I left a kettle on the stove and was called off the boat, leaving the kettle going. When I remembered and rushed back, it was red hot and all the water had evaporated; a few minutes longer and that would have been that.

PWG
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Fair point. You are unlikely to need one in every cabin. In our case the survey mentioned replacing all extinguishers and requiring one per cabin, so now the insurance require that also, and so it goes...

That said, a fire preventing egress from one of the aft cabins doesn’t bear thinking about, as unlikely as it may be. So I don’t begrudge fitting the extra small foam extinguishers for them. They can also be useful elsewhere in an emergency.

A few people have mentioned an extinguisher in a cockpit locker and that sounds very sensible. For now we’re continuing our refit, but once we get going I’ll stow an extra one there too.
 
AFFF is your best option throughout and would use these over water mist, both for cost and efficiency. A company called Firetrace supply fire suppression systems that can be used in the engine bay. Have a look at their website for videos. These are relatively inexpensive and effective. I am employed in this industry and this is what I have on my Boat.
 
JohnnyG818 said:
AFFF is your best option throughout and would use these over water mist, both for cost and efficiency. A company called Firetrace supply fire suppression systems that can be used in the engine bay. Have a look at their website for videos. These are relatively inexpensive and effective. I am employed in this industry and this is what I have on my Boat.
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Thanks for the insight - the Firetrace products look a good bet for the engine compartment (and you can tell they're dedicated to the cause!). It looks like their direct/targeted auto extinguishers (with the hose running around the engine) run on powder, so I might steer towards their 'indirect'/foam options.

I appreciate the arguments that powder might not kill the engine. But ours is a new-ish Beta, so quite a bit more replacement value than an air cooled VW (as demonstrated nicely in their test rig!). That said, it has a proper filter element so I suspect that would just block and choke the engine, before the cylinders could hone themselves with the powder!

I think this affirms the decision for AFFF for the majority of the extinguishers... it's just the odd naysayer comments (such as this old thread from here - suggesting that the motion of, in this case a race car, may affect the performance: Foam fire extinguishers - AFFF) plus the very impressive videos of water mist that make me fancy having one on board, 'just in case'.

Think I'm ready to order (2x1L/1x2L AFFFs, 1.4L water mist). Don't know if they do black Friday for fire safety products...?! And hopefully I never need to report back on my experience of actually using them. Thanks, all, for the help and input ?
 
Having watched the video, a scary scenario came to mind.
What happens if there is a galley fire and the flexible hose was leaking/pulled off its connector? (due perhaps to some previous violent movement)
Can you reach the shut off valve?
Mine is above the galley.
By the time one had understood, with a hose spouting flame and made the cockpit to shut off the cylinder valve, things could have become very serious.
 
Graham_Wright said:
Having watched the video, a scary scenario came to mind.
What happens if there is a galley fire and the flexible hose was leaking/pulled off its connector? (due perhaps to some previous violent movement)
Can you reach the shut off valve?
Mine is above the galley.
By the time one had understood, with a hose spouting flame and made the cockpit to shut off the cylinder valve, things could have become very serious.
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Yeah, a scary scenario indeed. Our valve is in the adjacent cupboard... But in theory a water mist extinguisher (or dry powder) should be able to put out a gas ('class C') fire.

Take a look at the demo video (about 2:20 mins in) - makes short work of the gas jet in their test rig:
 
May I suggest that rather than looking at the use of an extinguisher and which one, there are considerations to be made before that last resort. Be proactive and think of all the likely sources that could create fuel for and ignition of a fire. Examine regularly all fuel lines, connections etc. Examine all electrical connections to ensure all are tight and thus unlikely to heat up and create a fire. Appropriate use of fuses, gas alarms, blowers and warning systems. Unless it is an explosion many fires start very small and take time to grow so immediate action with the simplest of extinguishers could be effective. After that you have a range of extinguishers depending on the severity of the fire. Personally I have found that water or Co2 to have been my first choice and dry powder to be the last resort.
 
If you are intending to actually deal with the fire, AFFF is the only sane choice, apart from Auto halon subs in a small engine space, probably recommended by your shiny-@rsed insurance underwriters

Lots of big ones, and memorise where they are, role-play eyes shut grabbing and using, so you can put your hands on them if SHTF.
LARP it up, you will never regret it.
The 3 F's are, *in order*, Fire , Flooding, and Falling In (the sea).
 
gus said:
May I suggest that rather than looking at the use of an extinguisher and which one, there are considerations to be made before that last resort. Be proactive and think of all the likely sources that could create fuel for and ignition of a fire. Examine regularly all fuel lines, connections etc. Examine all electrical connections to ensure all are tight and thus unlikely to heat up and create a fire. Appropriate use of fuses, gas alarms, blowers and warning systems. Unless it is an explosion many fires start very small and take time to grow so immediate action with the simplest of extinguishers could be effective. After that you have a range of extinguishers depending on the severity of the fire. Personally I have found that water or Co2 to have been my first choice and dry powder to be the last resort.
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I suspect most boat owners do the proactive thing, but sometimes all the mitigations to risk you put in just fail.

All fires start very small here is a lovely example

How the Buncefield fire happened
 
The limited fire training I have had demonstrated the eff3ectiveness of AFFF on fuel and HV electrical fires. The spinny nozzle must be checked to ensure it is free to spin though.

When people on here talk about water mist, do they mean AFFF? As AFFF is just water with a misting solution and atomiser nozzle.
 
Sandy said:
I suspect most boat owners do the proactive thing, but sometimes all the mitigations to risk you put in just fail.

All fires start very small here is a lovely example

How the Buncefield fire happened
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Interesting, I remember it clearly because that night I was sleeping on an old narrow boat on the Grand Union, doing some welding, and we had sheet steel stored on the roof.
There was a very strange atmospheric pressure event, which was like a mini sonic boom, and the sheets of steel lifted off the roof an inch or two, then crashed down with a horrendous noise, all the dogs started barking, car alarms going off etc.
I bet the Hemels will remember that night forever. We were several miles away!
 
I googled water mist and it came up with " a group of water/surfactant based extinguishers which to me means it's just another name for AFFF. Would be my first choice.
 
Habebty said:
I googled water mist and it came up with " a group of water/surfactant based extinguishers which to me means it's just another name for AFFF. Would be my first choice.
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Try FireSafe.org.uk or SafeLincs. Watermist is actually pure h2o. AFFF (a foam additive actually it's just the proper name for foam 'Aqueous Film Forming Foam') is going down the path of Halon... that is to say... banned.

Types of Fire Extinguishers : Firesafe.org.uk
Water Mist Extinguishers - For most fire risks
 
I have the typical 2.5 Kg or 5lb powder type, for insurance purposes, because they are cheep, and they work if required. On A B and C fires.
I also have the little hole into the engine compartment. Again for insurance purpose, rather than actually expecting it to work. however I expect it will work as well as any extinguisher which I can find readily available.
Why, not Co2, Co2 would work as a fixed system, as an extinguisher not so much. Why not have you ever fired one off. and seen what happens to the diffuser. which will not fit through the little hole into the engine compartment any way.
Foam, foam is just water, with foamy stuff added, it works well and is ideal for class A and B fires( NA classes) so regular stuff and oily stuff.
Unfortunately not readily available where I sail.
My choice would be water mist.
Why, I have had personal experience, using(a fixed system not an extinguisher) Fuel oil fire in an engine space, fuel line sprayed onto hot, instant flare up, water mist activated instantly out. no damage.
Unfortunately, I have not found a local supplier of water mist extinguishers.

Those who mentioned fire blankets, personal experience, fire blankets work really really well for my kind of cooking mishap.

If you want to fight a fire fit a pump and a fire hose.

If you want to be able to prevent a tiny little fire turning into a fire. use an extinguisher. If it turns into an involved fire, see above. probably should have some form of fire suite and SCBA as well.
 
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