Heavy weather - engine on or off?

[A1Sailor]

Sail - then engine on if required on arrival.

 

[johnalison]

One factor not mentioned, I think, is the crew. There have been times when the two of us, not particularly young or strong, have been faced with something like a 25 mile leg in more than fresh conditions. My VMG in good conditions can be well over 4 knots, ignoring tide, but in heavy seas can drop to about 2 by the time leeway is taken into account. Motor-sailing deeply reefed at about 30 degrees to the true wind can be fairly comfortable, and the resulting passage of about 5 hours has to be compared with maybe 8-10 hours under sail. You could say that people like us shouldn't be out at sea if we aren't fit for it, but I believe that would be an unfair view since we are capable of assessing a passage and almost always have the option the return to port.

 

[Robin]

There is a big difference in using the engine to help punch to windward in bad conditions in a boat that doesn't do upwind well and having the engine going with a 'free' wind just to aid steering control, which to me is totally unnecessary.

We once left St Peter Port Guernsey for Cherbourg, mostly downwind or a broad reach, in a SW6, in company with another boat who had the engine going the whole trip because he felt he had to, I still do not understand why.

Oh and motor sailing upwind in a blow does work, especially with the bigger motors in boats these days, but it is downright uncomfortable. So often those who do it subsequently complain bitterly about the boat slamming, saying that a traditional heavy long keeler wouldn't slam, whilst forgetting that traditional boat didn't have the engine power to do it anyway, even if it didn't spring a plank or two. Much nicer (or less unpleasant) to sail.

 

[greenalien]

If you get caught out in heavy weather, you are inevitably going to start making some leeway, especially the more you reef down. This is more of a problem with boats with luff-spar reefing, as the sail loses efficiency as the sail is rolled up. Having an engine running can help to keep the boat pointing higher, which can be the difference between rounding a headland and having to put in a couple of tacks, maybe missing a tide gate as mentioned earlier.

 

[westernman]

In the med going to windward in a F8 with short sharp seas of 3m or more is unpleasant however you do it.

We can make about 5.5 knots through the water in such conditions reefed down, but the actually speed over ground towards your destination can be depressingly slow once you take into account the surface current kicked up by the wind. It is also wet and we will put the bows and the whole bow sprit through every second wave which is not great for speed.

If we use the engine and sail, we get even wetter and it is even more uncomfortable. However we do start to make some real progress. If we use just the engine, then the speed is still depressingly slow and uncomfortable as we can only make about 2.5 knots through the water and the surface current can be up to 2 knots.

In a F9 with the engine at full throttle we will be going backwards.

However, if we can bear off a bit and head downwind, we will have a fantastic, comfortable sail. Even on a beam reach.

So - if caught out in such conditions, it really pays for the keeping the crew happy and preserving sanity, not to go uphill.

Gentlemen don't go (sail or motor) to windward in a gale.

 

[CaSam]

Sail - then engine on if required on arrival.

Me too - biggest concern for me is raw water pickup.... motorsailed once around Portland Bill just to hit a tidal gate..... boat was on port tack and the raw water intake for the engine was not totally submerged all of the time.

Not good for the impeller, but thank goodnes to the engine alarm!

 

[wazza]

This is a good question to which I have an answer to what I done...
Last season I was caught out twice in these kind of conditions... Once with my wife & daughters 8 & 10 and the the other time an experienced mate..
With wife & kids, engine on for support, speeding up & slowing down and got in to the nearest harbour.
With mate, didn't touch the engine, with reefed sails making sure the boat was well balanced continued to sail, even through the night to our destination..

Different boats, BUT I firmly believe the same outcome if we'd have switched boats (Najad 343 & X-yachts 42) so in my case in with the crew that decided..

 

[PCUK]

Didn't read every answer so apologies if this has already been said. Clean out the tank every three years and that is one problem removed.

 

[lw395]

Some tanks will allow air into the fuel when the motion gets lively and fuel is a bit low. I would not want to be running the fuel low as I enter harbour unless I trusted the boat in this respect. Trying to bleed the system in a chop can be unpleasant, and there may not be time in confined space. Apart from that it depends a lot on the particular boat and its engine.

 

[Bosun Higgs]

Let’s say you found yourself in 30-35 knots of wind and 2-3 meters of waves with a lot of rolling and pitching of the boat. These are obviously heavy weather and not survival conditions, since you can still sail (at some direction, not necessarily towards your course) with heavily reefed sails. Having the engine on could always help since it could provide some better steering or some push eg when climbing up the waves. In fact some articles or books mention that in these conditions a good method is to keep the main up (reefed of course) and motor sail. However, any sort of dirt in the fuel tank with all the rolling and pitching could easily block a filter and stop the engine. So, question is would you have the engine on and risk it? And does a full tank reduce this risk?
.

First thing is that a true 30-35 knots and 2 -3 metre waves is survival conditions for most normal size family sailing boats particularly the light weight ones. Problem is most people exaggerate and note the gusts not the average and wildly overestimate wave height.

Going into it I would not use my engine. More that enough wind to give me all the power I need and more. But tbh unless racing or desperate I wouldnt go into it. I wouldnt even be out in it.

Going down wind is different . Assuming I wasnt racing, the apparent wind would be 25 to 30kn so likely I would use reefed genny alone. But I have found myself in a situation going round a headland where the troughs left me without enough steerage way so then I motorsailed downwind.

Most modern sailing boats handle better and make better progress under sail than under engine in my experience. The one exception is when the destination is dead upwind

 

[snooks]

If it's a pants trip and putting the engine on would shorten the misery, it's a no brainer I would (and have) put the engine on to enable me to point higher and stop myself loosing speed and momentum going up a wave when the reefed sail is too little power because of the wave height.

We were taken down tide, the forecast wind veered so it was a tight beat, so on went the engine. We could have eased off, but as it was our 20 mile sail turned into a 35 mile slog into wind and tide.

Done it before and I would do it again.

 

[Beadle]

Depends so much on the boat and the course.

I sail a gaff rigged Colvic Watson so trying to sail to windward in that sort of stuff is out of the question.

If i was going downwind I'd be happy under jib or maybe staysail. If I wanted more power I would put the mizzen up, maybe with a reef in. That way I would have the option of heaving to if I didn't want to go too far downwind

If I needed to make to weather it would be engine - either making slow progress on a course or "dodging". The Colvic has a hull based on fishing boat designs and dodging is a normal tactic for fishing boats in heavy weather.

 

[westernman]

Depends so much on the boat and the course.

I sail a gaff rigged Colvic Watson so trying to sail to windward in that sort of stuff is out of the question.

If i was going downwind I'd be happy under jib or maybe staysail. If I wanted more power I would put the mizzen up, maybe with a reef in. That way I would have the option of heaving to if I didn't want to go too far downwind

If I needed to make to weather it would be engine - either making slow progress on a course or "dodging". The Colvic has a hull based on fishing boat designs and dodging is a normal tactic for fishing boats in heavy weather.

Can you please explain dodging. I don't know the term.
Thanks.

 

[Simondjuk]

The answer to this question depends on how long it is until the pub closes.

 

[Beadle]

Yes

Its used by fishing boats in the North Sea (and elsewhere for all I know)

Basically you motor at very low speed, just enough to have steerage way heading just a few degrees off head on into seas.

They rely on the high bows and great strength of the boats. With the boat closed up seas breaking over the bows quickly run off the boat.

It would work with the Colvic Watson design which is based on North Sea fishing boat principles. I would be hesitant to try it with a modern lightweight yacht design. Not sure about a Bristol Cutter, I suspect you need plenty of beam for it to work properly.

If you look in "Heavy Weather Sailing" there is a picture of a fishing boat "dodging" into scary great waves with the 3 man crew stood at the stern having a quiet smoke.

I was told a good tale by an old boy In Hartlepool who had spent most of his life fishing and running similar boats in the Nth Sea. He had been heading north when the weather turned nasty a northerly gale and big sea. He tried to get into Berwick and changed his mind and worked back off shore. The harbour master wanted to send the lifeboat to bring him in and he wouldn't have insisted he was quiite happy (?) dodging. Apparently he "dodged" all night and never lost sight of Berwick Harbour light.

 

[Seajet]

My first thought when faced with heavy weather is ' keep power on ! ' - sail power - it's so easy to get frightened and reef down to the eyebrows, then one is a sitting duck and going to get clobbered.

I might use the engine to assist pointing, but I'd certainly have it shipped in position in its' well, as that also gives a huge cockpit drain on my particular boat.

On almost any boat I'd start the engine and warm it up, then shut it down for fear of air into the inlet, unless desperate for battery charging or propulsion.

Another consideration is lobster pots; I don't even want to think about suddenly finding myself being anchored by one of those by the stern in a strong wind and big seas !

I do carry a Big Knife and a long pole 'garden lopper'.

 

[William_H]

Motoring in strong winds

Firstly the fuel is going to be stirred up by the rough water. I am not sure it would make so much difference if the engine was running if it is stirred up the engine will not run when needed anyway. Keep it clean.
I would find that a need to go to windward is the real worry. Off the wind you can cope with much more wind while sailing.
The waves on the nose will make steering difficult under sail especially if you sail close to the wind with a risk of backwinding the jib. Thrust from the engine will give you more steerage way when and if you get luffed and or stopped by waves. You will probably be tempted to luff in strong gusts anyway.
So I would say sail as best you can with jib and main all well reefed and use the engine thrust to help you sail to windward at best speed. good luck olewill

 

[Seajet]

I was once asked to take a 54' motorsailer across the Bay Of Biscay; when checking the fuel tanks we found 2 inches of clay - like sludge, the thought of that getting to the engines in the bay still makes me shiver.

 

[alant]

Let’s say you found yourself in 30-35 knots of wind and 2-3 meters of waves with a lot of rolling and pitching of the boat. These are obviously heavy weather and not survival conditions, since you can still sail (at some direction, not necessarily towards your course) with heavily reefed sails. Having the engine on could always help since it could provide some better steering or some push eg when climbing up the waves. In fact some articles or books mention that in these conditions a good method is to keep the main up (reefed of course) and motor sail. However, any sort of dirt in the fuel tank with all the rolling and pitching could easily block a filter and stop the engine. So, question is would you have the engine on and risk it? And does a full tank reduce this risk?
This is really a not “academic” question because I believe these are conditions which we should always prepared to do so. And just to add, let’s assume that we sail in a clear distance from shore meaning we don’t need the engine on to avoid going aground.

Has been known, for some designs when sailing on a particular heel in heavy weather, for water to ingress via the exhaust. This if it gets into the cylinders, can spoil your day drastically.

If starting from cold, turning over the engine, before firing up, might blow any water out, allowing a full start. So running the engine before this happens might help prevent it.

 

[bedouin]

If you've got the right sails on the boat I don't see any benefit in using the engine, and plenty of risks.

A heavy weather jib and 3 reefs in the main should provide plenty of power to keep the boat going. On my boat I can't see the engine alone providing enough power to make steering easy