Heavy air spinnaker?

[roblpm]

We race in the Forth. Pretty inexperienced. Parker 275.

We do now have a number 3 jib which is great over about 12 knots.

Being Scotland we seem to quite often have 15 knots plus and have the number 3 on the furler.

If it is say 18 knits and there are some waves I am a bit nervous flying the spinnaker as we have an inexperienced crew and haven't practiced enough. I do know to flatten the spinnaker etc.

But if we chicken out we are stuffed as we then have the number 3 on the furler and can't change to the genoa quick enough to use is as a smaller downwind sail. So we then lose even worse than usual!

So my question is does anyone doing club cans racing have heavy weather smaller spinnakers. Does this affect your handicap? Is this chickening out?

What % sail area would be a good idea? I was thinking of a second hand spinnaker off a slightly smaller boat?

Would also be good for practicing with new crew?

 

[lpdsn]

So my question is does anyone doing club cans racing have heavy weather smaller spinnakers. Does this affect your handicap? Is this chickening out?

What % sail area would be a good idea? I was thinking of a second hand spinnaker off a slightly smaller boat?

Under IRC, you're rated for the largest spinnaker on board and can carry three (you can own more but you have to leave the extras behind). So no effect on your handicap with carrying a smaller one. Not chickening out (they are sometimes called a chicken chute though ).

Of course it's not just the spinnaker size, it's the cloth weight too.

 

[roblpm]

Under IRC, you're rated for the largest spinnaker on board and can carry three (you can own more but you have to leave the extras behind). So no effect on your handicap with carrying a smaller one. Not chickening out (they are sometimes called a chicken chute though ).

Of course it's not just the spinnaker size, it's the cloth weight too.

We are on a modified py system.

If i want to wing it and not buy from a sailmaker what size would i go for. My normal spinnaker is all purpose 0.9oz i think. So i would want a bit smaller and heavier?

 

[lw395]

Not too small.
You want the head no more than 18inches from the sheave, you can raise the pole a bit.
What you want is a reaching kite with shoulders that are not very wide.
You don't want too small a foot, tall narrow kites are hard to fly.
So you might reduce the area by 25 to 35 %??
Is an Asy an option?

 

[roblpm]

Not too small.
You want the head no more than 18inches from the sheave, you can raise the pole a bit.
What you want is a reaching kite with shoulders that are not very wide.
You don't want too small a foot, tall narrow kites are hard to fly.
So you might reduce the area by 25 to 35 %??
Is an Asy an option?

I don't think its really set up for asy.

As with all these things my idea of bodging something cheap up looks tricky....! I will proportion the measurements of my spinnaker down by 25% and see if there is anything second hand to have a play with! Thanks.

 

[Foolish Muse]

I'd suggest that you just look for a used spinnaker on a smaller boat. 25% is a big reduction in size. Once you start flying it in 20 knots you'll quickly realize that you can fly your normal chute in 20-25 knots no problem.

 

[roblpm]

Ok.

Parker 275. I 32ft. J 10.5ft

Sonata I 25.7ft J 9ft

Can i try a cheap second hand Sonata spinnaker and see what happens? (obviously i can but will the pole be too high? Shape completely wrong?)

 

[roblpm]

I need to measure mine!! Tomorrow!

 

[lpdsn]

Ok.

Parker 275. I 32ft. J 10.5ft

Sonata I 25.7ft J 9ft

Can i try a cheap second hand Sonata spinnaker and see what happens? (obviously i can but will the pole be too high? Shape completely wrong?)

Over 6' is a lot of difference, so your pole would likely be too high.

Re teh earlier question, if it were me I'd just go for slightly heavier cloth. From an earlier thread it sounds like you can rely on racing getting before you need anything too much heavier.

I agree with FoolishMuse, but if this is the route to learning to fly your kite in stronger winds, all well and good.

You can modify things to fly an a-sail off the end of your pole. Not trivial, but not major surgery either. You'd need a tack line and still need guys (as well as two sheets) to keep the end of the pole in position and avoid it hitting the forestay at any stage. You'd also need a position on the mast to mount the pole much lower. No handicap penalty if your asymmetric is no bigger than your existing symmetric and you'll be already rated for your pole. Or you could just fit a tack line and fly it off the bow, but that would limit the size of the A-sail more.

 

[lpdsn]

I will proportion the measurements of my spinnaker down by 25% and see if there is anything second hand to have a play with! Thanks.

25% in area, not 25% for each individual dimension I presume.

 

[roblpm]

25% in area, not 25% for each individual dimension I presume.

Ah yes good point!!

 

[Judders]

I don't think it's about area so much as cut. Our chickenchute is only marginally smaller in the tapes than the other two (and that's only after a reputation was required after blowing it out in a lovely broach a few years ago) but it's much flatter and thus less powerful.

I don't like the idea of raising the pole and having a smaller kite at all, anything that raises the CoE is a bad idea.

 

[roblpm]

I don't think it's about area so much as cut. Our chickenchute is only marginally smaller in the tapes than the other two (and that's only after a reputation was required after blowing it out in a lovely broach a few years ago) but it's much flatter and thus less powerful.

I don't like the idea of raising the pole and having a smaller kite at all, anything that raises the CoE is a bad idea.

Hmmmm. Thats what i was beginning to think. People have kindly pointed out that if the luff is shorter the pole will be too high, and as you say i can understand that you don't want the coe higher up!! So really you need a heavier flatter sail! Proper money!

 

[awol]

As a solution without spending money, but certainly nowhere near as efficient as a proper spinnaker, is to fly your No1 loose-luffed from the spinnaker halyard. You could even use your pole.
I suspect, and apologise if I am wrong, that you are being discouraged from spinnaker hoisting by your upwind apparent wind speed. There will be something like 10kts reduction in the AWS once you get round the weather mark so be brave. If nothing else it will teach you how to recover from a broach!

 

[lw395]

I don't think it's about area so much as cut. Our chickenchute is only marginally smaller in the tapes than the other two (and that's only after a reputation was required after blowing it out in a lovely broach a few years ago) but it's much flatter and thus less powerful.

I don't like the idea of raising the pole and having a smaller kite at all, anything that raises the CoE is a bad idea.

The idea is not to raise the CoE.
You can fly a smaller kite by not hoisting the head right to the sheave in the mast. But if you overdo this, the kite will move too much.
So use a kite that's smaller by say 18 inches in height. Leave a foot or so of halliard above the head and raise the pole end 6 inches or so.

As you say, a purpose made heavy weather kite is a lot about cut. Flatter. With less width high up.
But we are talikng about a secondhand kite for learning with?

 

[flaming]

Heavy air kite should be full hoist (definitely never leave slack at the top of the hoist, that's a terrible idea) but narrower and flatter. We have one that's as old as the boat, comes out on average once a season but when it does it wins us races as it's generally the spinnaker you set when setting a spinnaker has been deemed a bad idea by the rest of the fleet. But it makes the boat rock solid downwind.

 

[lw395]

Heavy air kite should be full hoist (definitely never leave slack at the top of the hoist, that's a terrible idea) but narrower and flatter. We have one that's as old as the boat, comes out on average once a season but when it does it wins us races as it's generally the spinnaker you set when setting a spinnaker has been deemed a bad idea by the rest of the fleet. But it makes the boat rock solid downwind.

But we are not talking about an actual heavy air kite, we are talking about a training kite for use in up to 20 knots true (or is that ground wind?).
Obviously the proper answer is to buy a new heavy kite, but for the Op's purposes, something just a bit undersize might be appropriate.
You don't want it looking like this, athough they seem t obe going quite quickly:
http://www.strawberrymarketing.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/2008-08-10_6996_505kite.jpg

 

[roblpm]

Heavy air kite should be full hoist (definitely never leave slack at the top of the hoist, that's a terrible idea) but narrower and flatter. We have one that's as old as the boat, comes out on average once a season but when it does it wins us races as it's generally the spinnaker you set when setting a spinnaker has been deemed a bad idea by the rest of the fleet. But it makes the boat rock solid downwind.

Yes we are in the windy north so might be more than once a season!!

 

[roblpm]

As a solution without spending money, but certainly nowhere near as efficient as a proper spinnaker, is to fly your No1 loose-luffed from the spinnaker halyard. You could even use your pole.
I suspect, and apologise if I am wrong, that you are being discouraged from spinnaker hoisting by your upwind apparent wind speed. There will be something like 10kts reduction in the AWS once you get round the weather mark so be brave. If nothing else it will teach you how to recover from a broach!

We have had practice with a few broaches. The real purpose would be to be more confident in 20+knots true. As you say this will be

 

[roblpm]

Oops. Contd...

This will only be 14 knots apparent. But we are wimps!