Haverfordwest paddleboard deaths - MAIB report published

Mark-1

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A river in full spate in danger of bursting its banks is an extremely dangerous beast indeed, even for skilled and experienced paddlers.

Leaving aside the danger, it seems to me that shooting weirs and negotiating fast water is not remotely a normal part or paddleboarding as a sport. (Unless I'm missing something.)

Even if it was safe, unless there's an aspect of SUPing I'm unaware of this trip was like parachuting in your shed or something, just not what the sport is about.
 

ylop

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I'm not sure that locking someone up in jail, at taxpayers' expense, solves any problems in this case. Yes, the person was careless, criminally careless if you like, but they now have to live out the rest of their life, knowing that their carelessness cost lives. That's quite a punishment.
That could be said of every case of gross negligence manslaughter. Your argument is one of the considerations the judge has to weight up, but on the otherside of the scales - if criminal recklessness with paying clients resulting in multiple deaths doesn’t result in a significant penalty will others continue to take unnecessary chances with the lives of those trusting them to guide them (not just paddle boarding).
 

ylop

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Leaving aside the danger, it seems to me that shooting weirs and negotiating fast water is not remotely a normal part or paddleboarding as a sport. (Unless I'm missing something.)

Even if it was safe, unless there's an aspect of SUPing I'm unaware of this trip was like parachuting in your shed or something, just not what the sport is about.
There is a niche part of the sport who paddle on reasonably fast moving water. I’ve never heard anyone shooting a weir although they probably weren’t the first. I’m certain though that those who have done it before them have been specifically seeking the adrenaline, would have been better prepared and still done it in much more benign conditions.

What is well known in “serious” SUP circles (ie people who haven’t bought a board in Aldi and just jumped on it) is that one of the greatest threats to life is entanglement of the leash and in fast moving water previous accident investigations have strongly encouraged the use of quick release waist not ankle leashes. There is a school of thought that if tethered to the board that is enough additional buoyancy (especially if wearing a wetsuit) and PFDs are not essential. I’ve never heard anyone suggest that for moving water situations with a quick release tether - because by implication there is a potential to “eject” the board. Who knows if those simple steps would have made the difference - I think it would have been impossible for any jury to hear the inevitable expert opinion on those two issues and not conclude this was more than just bad luck or naive exuberance.
 

DreadShips

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Given the nature of the weir in question, and in those conditions, I doubt either quick release leashes or pfds would have made any difference (and weren't some victims wearing the latter, iirc?). It created a massive stopper wave, and despite stories I suspect being spat out of one of those is mostly a matter of luck.
 

Marsali_1

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Given the nature of the weir in question, and in those conditions, I doubt either quick release leashes or pfds would have made any difference (and weren't some victims wearing the latter, iirc?). It created a massive stopper wave, and despite stories I suspect being spat out of one of those is mostly a matter of luck.
If you read the report (see post #75 for the link) on page 29-30 it discusses what CCTV footage of the weir showed as the tragedy unfolded. There seems to be indications that at least one of the casualties was being held back by the ankle tether while the board was being pinned against the face of the weir by the recirculation. The fact that three people did float clear with their boards suggests that had the others been able to escape their tethers immediately then they, also, might have floated clear but only if they had adequate bouyancy in the aerated water.
 

steve yates

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Leaving aside the danger, it seems to me that shooting weirs and negotiating fast water is not remotely a normal part or paddleboarding as a sport. (Unless I'm missing something.)

Even if it was safe, unless there's an aspect of SUPing I'm unaware of this trip was like parachuting in your shed or something, just not what the sport is about.
I would completely agree with that.
 

billskip

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I would completely agree with that.
You may.....but....was motorcycle riding doing stunts like Eval Knievel envisage when motorcycles were introduced?

I don't think this is a problem with what they were doing, it's a problem with being instructed/encouraged to do it by a comercial organisation without the understanding and expertise of risk conditions.
Individuals doing extreme sports and risking injuries or worse is a different ball game to comercial organisations encouraging it.
 

Mark-1

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You may.....but....was motorcycle riding doing stunts like Eval Knievel envisage when motorcycles were introduced?

I don't think these guys were intentionally inventing a new sport though, they were out for a 'normal' paddle. Googling stunt motorcycling and you get loads of hits - googling white water SUPs there are hardly any hits and they seem to be for specialist boards with very different skegs to the ones on my Hatha SUPs. People just don't seem to use SUPS to shoot weirs, it's just not what they're for. The boards/skegs are too vulnerable, they wouldn't survive much contact with rock and debris.

It's just weird. It's like a bunch of skateboarders decided to go skate boarding on shingle, or flying a kite in a forest. Even if it was perfectly safe, you just wouldn't bother, it's not what you buy a SUP for.

Regarding quick release tethers - I've never seen one IRL and I hadn't heard of them until I read that MAIB report. Surfers don't use them and they are permanently in the most disturbed water. Personally I think the MAIB report is totally exaggerating the use of them in Paddleboarding. I did a 'Introduction to SUP' course with my family and I'm certain quick release tethers were not mentioned. (Picking up on the point made about buoyancy aids on the 'Introduction' course the leader specifically said buoyancy aids weren't needed on the inland water we were on - paraphrasing he said if you're tied to a 200L float, buoyancy isn't an issue. So I guess that's the 'official' line, certainly I never wear one. My youngest does on my wife's orders but I don't see much benefit.)

So that's my confusion. It's not "Why were they they there when it was dangerous." it's more "Why were they there at all.", it was just a rubbish place to do what they were doing.

Perhaps the "fish pass" is deepish water that can be paddled fairly normally in normal conditions without risk to skegs? I guess that would make the trip make sense. From the report "participants were not briefed on the presence of the weir or how to descend it.". That makes me wonder if the weir is barely a weir at all in 'normal' times, that would make the location make sense as a SUP destination. If they were expecting to be shooting a weir it would surely be the highlight and the main focus of the trip? The intent was certainly to go over the weir, on the whatsapp group the discussion was: "Their principal concern was the effect of wind, sea state and precipitation and whether there was sufficient water to allow their SUPs to float over the weir.".
 
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billskip

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Googling stunt motorcycling and you get loads of hits - googling white water SUPs there are hardly any hits
I don't think Google was known about when motorcycle stunt riding was in its infancy, of course SUP extreme usage has hardly any hits, it's also in its infancy...

Rubber dinghies were not thought of for white water rafting, as with paddle boards.

Paddle boards will be designed for white water rapids give it time.
 

DreadShips

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If you read the report (see post #75 for the link) on page 29-30 it discusses what CCTV footage of the weir showed as the tragedy unfolded. There seems to be indications that at least one of the casualties was being held back by the ankle tether while the board was being pinned against the face of the weir by the recirculation. The fact that three people did float clear with their boards suggests that had the others been able to escape their tethers immediately then they, also, might have floated clear but only if they had adequate bouyancy in the aerated water.
It does however imply that the leader who died removed his leash before re-entering the river (though it's not explicit - they note he removed it on the bank but don't affirm he either left it off or reattached it).

I meant to suggest that the weir wasn't suitable full stop though. Plenty of kayakers have died in similar circumstances - what happens in there is a crapshoot.
 

Mark-1

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I don't think Google was known about when motorcycle stunt riding was in its infancy, of course SUP extreme usage has hardly any hits, it's also in its infancy...

Rubber dinghies were not thought of for white water rafting, as with paddle boards.

Paddle boards will be designed for white water rapids give it time.

Yes, but I still find it baffling. I can only conclude that the "fish pass" is typically a gap of deepish water that you can navigate without ripping your skegg off and is so unremarkable it doesn't get mentioned in the briefing. (But is discussed on WA as being problematic if there's not enough water.)

I'm probably explaining myself badly. I can easily understand how the weir could be dangerous. I'm just strugging to understand how it would be suitable for SUPs at the times when it's safe. Weirs are an inconvenient obstruction likely to damage normal SUPs, not part of the fun. I guess there's a feature of this weir that makes it typically traversable for SUPs, maybe I missed it when I skim read the MAIB report.
 
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DreadShips

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Fish passes - and weirs - come in all sorts of designs depending on the height of the weir, typical water flow, species it's designed to help etc. One type that you could ride is basically like a log flume at the fairground that creates a smooth flow of water. A lot of those still have a concrete pen at the bottom that would give you grief though. Not a happy thing to discover unexpectedly.

I can imagine you can swap the skeg for more shallow and/or flexible ones if you wanted - surfers have lots of options for their fin set up, and I know my inflatable kayak has a very different skeg shape to my SUP that's less likely to get knocked but also less use in surf.
 

billskip

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not part of the fun
I think this is the problem, your fun and others fun are possibly two different things, the fun for some turns into boredom or the desire to push the limits/experiment.
I'm not suggesting for one minute, and I haven't read the report, that this outing was to push the limits in extreme conditions.
People were under the guidance of supposed professional instructors.
This is where the education fails and allows repeated tragedy,

Going to prison isn't going to solve that (I'm not suggesting they shouldn't) because the buck should stop at the person responsible for the comercial enterprise. (Of course in this instance it may be the instructors)
As said in an earlier post, lessons are not learned.
 

ylop

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Regarding quick release tethers - I've never seen one IRL and I hadn't heard of them until I read that MAIB report. Surfers don't use them and they are permanently in the most disturbed water.
They are far from the default option but it’s they aren’t for use in disturbed water they are for use in moving water where there’s some sort of entrapment hazard - it seems unlikely that people surf in areas where their board or leash is likely to get trapped in solid objects.

Personally I think the MAIB report is totally exaggerating the use of them in Paddleboarding.
If you see “paddleboarding” as a whole they are not common, but following previous tragedies they are very common on river paddle boarding. It would be astonishing if the owner of a paddleboard company (which sold paddleboard equipment) had never heard of them.

I did a 'Introduction to SUP' course with my family and I'm certain quick release tethers were not mentioned.
As did I - and the advantage of springy, static and quick release were discussed. Of course in a 2h (?) course it was about 90s of discussion which seemed relatively low importance as we were about to paddle on flat water.
(Picking up on the point made about buoyancy aids on the 'Introduction' course the leader specifically said buoyancy aids weren't needed on the inland water we were on - paraphrasing he said if you're tied to a 200L float, buoyancy isn't an issue.
Assuming you can get back on the thing and haven’t become (or intentionally) detached from it.
So I guess that's the 'official' line,
Well the lack of clarity of who “owns” the governance means there is no single official line.
certainly I never wear one. My youngest does on my wife's orders but I don't see much benefit.)
Are using it in circumstances where your life might depend on abandoning the board? Life all PFDs treating every situation the same is probably not optimal - it might be the easiest option for a school, guide etc though. Otherwise you really need to actively risk assess each trip to ensure your thinking is appropriate.
 

ylop

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Going to prison isn't going to solve that (I'm not suggesting they shouldn't) because the buck should stop at the person responsible for the comercial enterprise. (Of course in this instance it may be the instructors)
As said in an earlier post, lessons are not learned.
Prison won’t bring back the dead. It *might* make other guides across a wide range of activities review their procedures - although I suspect most would believe they would never be as stupid as this.

The defendant was both one of the instructors on the day (the other died trying to rescue their customers) and the owner of the business. There’s no doubt here that they were the “controlling mind” who organised the trip, stood to make money from the trip, was responsible for the risk assessment and for the execution of the plan on the day. This is one of those unusual circumstances where it’s quite clear where the buck should stop, and that there isn’t someone in a suit hiding in a boardroom whilst the minimum wage instructor is left to carry the can!
 

ylop

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Yes, but I still find it baffling. I can only conclude that the "fish pass" is typically a gap of deepish water that you can navigate without ripping your skegg off and is so unremarkable it doesn't get mentioned in the briefing. (But is discussed on WA as being problematic if there's not enough water.)

I'm probably explaining myself badly. I can easily understand how the weir could be dangerous. I'm just strugging to understand how it would be suitable for SUPs at the times when it's safe. Weirs are an inconvenient obstruction likely to damage normal SUPs, not part of the fun. I guess there's a feature of this weir that makes it typically traversable for SUPs, maybe I missed it when I skim read the MAIB report.
Mark - I had similar thoughts when the report came out. The fact the MAIB didn’t declare it ridiculous even in the benign conditions it was initially recced in made me infer that that it was passable with care when conditions were right. But since the report explained the kayak clubs approach, I assume if they were able to find others who do this in SUPs it would at least have got a sentence.
 

Mark-1

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Assuming you can get back on the thing and haven’t become (or intentionally) detached from it.

Well yeah, in the case I'm describing the guy was 100% correct, in another situation he (and I) might have a different opinion.



Are using it in circumstances where your life might depend on abandoning the board? Life all PFDs treating every situation the same is probably not optimal - it might be the easiest option for a school, guide etc though. Otherwise you really need to actively risk assess each trip to ensure your thinking is appropriate.

I must confess that would be my take if I worked in the industry. I'd have the rule that everyone wears a PFD just to protect myself from legal consequences. No investigation or inquiry is ever going to definitively say it's wrong, even in this incident where there's a case to be made that it was.

As a non-pro I consider each case on its own merits. (And then often ignore my conclusions out of laziness or do what my wife thinks is right.)
 

Mark-1

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There's a certain grim irony that we've probably spent longer here discussing risks and mitigations then the people responsible for this tragedy did...

It sounds like there was quite a lot of analysis on the WA group of the risk of "not enough" water at the weir, so it's not like there was no thought at all.

They just all seem blissfully unaware that too much water over the weir might be a thing. Maybe that's a feature of doing it in a SUP. If their primary concern was getting their skegs ripped off maybe they went with the attitude the more water the better without stopping to consider that might bring its own problems. The MAIB report should really have spelt this out.
 
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