Haverfordwest paddleboard deaths - MAIB report published

[Stemar]

But it seems to me big part of the problem was not discussing how to negotiate the weir.

I don't pretend to know much about river safety, but ISTM that, looking at the state of the river in general, and most especially the weir, the only discussion to be had was, "Sorry guys, we're not going. It's too dangerous today."

But hindsight is, as the saying goes, always 20/20.

 

[Adios]

I don't pretend to know much about river safety, but ISTM that, looking at the state of the river in general, and most especially the weir, the only discussion to be had was, "Sorry guys, we're not going. It's too dangerous today."

But hindsight is, as the saying goes, always 20/20.

Thats really the point I think, even someone without much knowledge should have known that the river wasn't right that day. But for a police officer and army trainer person to not have in their mind about weighing up conditions, risks and abilities is incredible. I think the belief beggaring was with the MAIB as well when they said "As a result, rather than viewing the fast-flowing, mud laden water as an indication of danger..." duh. Its death by idiot, and the false sense of security of having a guide, fraudulently by the sound of it as they weren't qualified or experienced enough to be relied on.

 

[jlavery]

What for me is hard to understand is that they had no awareness that they should have re-assessed the weir on the day. I remember when the incident happened, it was after a period of very heavy rain and my reaction at the time was "what were they doing on the river with flood warnings in force?".

Before reading the report, I had a healthy respect for weirs - and this is as a non-canoeist or kayaker, but just someone who's got (I hope) a good awareness of potential risk. Now this respect is reinforced!

 

[Wansworth]

Prudence

 

[Capt Popeye]

popeye - so jetski aren’t banned (just not allowed to play around); waterskiing is actively permitted in sensible areas and powerboats are speed limits keep people safe — management is not banning.

you got data to back that up? I’m not saying it never happens but USUAL

Humm guess you are not understanding the Teign Harbour so will expand ; JET Skis are baned unless going on a direct course from Launching at Polly Steps to outside the Harbour ; Watersking is ONLY allowed in the ONE designated area , plus being a member of the local Club ; NB water sking is banned elsewhere ; ALL craft are required to observe the 6 knot speed limit ,

Re Single Scullers incidents with Dumb Barges having current data no , but that iformation its part of our Thames Division training ; suggest recovery plans etc ; supprise maybe , though , that the recomended safety / recovery was that you take a deep reath and dive under the Dumb Barge letting the current flow take you along untill you pop up at the aft end

Added 21 30hrs There was a fatality , a fella on a Jet Ski , who got into difficulties off the Main Front beach ; the alarm was raised by peoples on the Main Beach promade ; but help arrived to late ; I hoped that the Harbour Board would relent following this death , and allow limited Jet Sking in side the safer areas of the Harbour ; but as so far no action evident

 

[Capt Popeye]

I don't pretend to know much about river safety, but ISTM that, looking at the state of the river in general, and most especially the weir, the only discussion to be had was, "Sorry guys, we're not going. It's too dangerous today."

But hindsight is, as the saying goes, always 20/20.

Well the other option was to state ,to the Group in Training , that for safety reasons we are carrying the boards down river past the Weir as its far to dangerous today to use it .

Well not really hindsight but basic Waterman ship , or just maybe , common scense ?

 

[MisterBaxter]

The river there is channeled between concrete embankments so that when it floods, it can't burst its banks, spread out and slow down; instead it just gets deeper, faster and more turbulent. You'd take one look at that churning mess, knowing there was a weir downstream, and said 'no way am I getting in there'. I find it almost unbelievable that anyone would launch a SUP - slow, wobbly and unmaneuverable at the best of times - into that situation.

 

[dankilb]

I don't pretend to know much about river safety, but ISTM that, looking at the state of the river in general, and most especially the weir, the only discussion to be had was, "Sorry guys, we're not going. It's too dangerous today."

But hindsight is, as the saying goes, always 20/20.

This is why I’d cite not having planned a very appealing alternative activity as a minor contributory factor. (A circular walk)

What to do instead if the planned activity is untenable is always a conundrum with commercial outdoor activities (inc. sailing of course).

Perhaps having an alternative planned that is closer to the marketed activity (there’s usually somewhere safe to go and play in the drink in all but the most inclement conditions) could make a ‘stop’ decision easier to make on the day?

 

[RivalRedwing]

They went over it in the recce when it was a tiny trickle but that day they would have heard the roar of the weir from a good way off, no need for signs, it was written all over the swirling water the whole day they were on the river and everything they went past. It should have been obviously different enough for them to know to get to the side and investigate. Staggering recklessness and stupidity. I'm usually on the side of "accidents happen" and not thinking they should throw the book at people but this case is extreme and I hope she gets a proper bit of time inside to reflect on it

Not so sure about the noise level (although I don't know that particular weir) my kayaking experience was that noisy weirs can be scary but tend to be safe (within reason), weirs with big nasty stoppers like the one in this case can be relatively quiet (menacingly quiet) because of the deep recirculation of the water and the lack of prominent waves - its the quiet ones that get you is my recollection from whitewater kayaking days.

 

[Capt Popeye]

Came accross this evening a 'u'tube' titled - danger of swimming near a weir -Newbury - very good model demo showing the 'tumbling' effect of the running water , explaining how its very difficult to escape from the 'tumbling' fast flowing water

Well worth seeing it explained and demonstrated

Supprised that the boating /swimming near any weir if forbiden totally

 

[TSB240]

Sadly these were not the only paddle board deaths in Wales. Interesting that the coroner had foresight of the maib report.
This was a case of impulse purchase at the door of Tescos. Other stores were just as culpable.
I actually raised the issue with the manager of a competing local store regarding the total lack of offer of any safety gear other than an ankle leash.

Coroner to write to Tesco after Conwy paddleboard death

We see some very inexperienced and ill equipped paddlers trying them out in some crazy places around here. Tidal races,whirlpools, back eddies, stoppers and standing waves are not places to be stood up on a board let alone a boat!

 

[jdc]

One comment in the MAIB report was on the different types of tether. So I asked my other half, who regularly goes SUPing with a qualified (?) guide on fast-flowing tidal waters with numerous moorings, semi-sunken wrecks etc, if she'd ever considered what tether to use. Answer was that neither she nor her mate (the professional instructor and tour leader) knew there was anything other than an ankle strap.
I think the lack of knowledge about the pass-time and its equipment and mitigation of dangers is the first thing to fix, rather than ad-hominem attacks on those involved in this tragedy.

 

[dankilb]

One comment in the MAIB report was on the different types of tether. So I asked my other half, who regularly goes SUPing with a qualified (?) guide on fast-flowing tidal waters with numerous moorings, semi-sunken wrecks etc, if she'd ever considered what tether to use. Answer was that neither she nor her mate (the professional instructor and tour leader) knew there was anything other than an ankle strap.
I think the lack of knowledge about the pass-time and its equipment and mitigation of dangers is the first thing to fix, rather than ad-hominem attacks on those involved in this tragedy.

That's not good.

Before SUP, surf was probably my closest watersport reference (except sailing/boating!) and I've spent little time on inland waterways in any form, so I could excusably not know about the need for/availability of waist leashes - but I do and have done for longer than I could remember when/where from. Perhaps that's because here, in the NW/N Wales, white water SUP is more of a 'thing'?

I do quite vividly recall discussing quick release leashes on my ASI '1' training course (although in reality that could have been any number of conversations over the years). I desperately wanted to there to be something on them in the (quite extensive 131 page) course materials, but it only mentions that waist leashes exist and offer 'greater mobility'. I doesn't refer to quick release specifically/at all. This would be something like a 2018 version.

Similarly, it doesn't seem to mention weirs (although it's a hard copy and so I can't text search to be sure). They aren't in the hazards list. But fast flowing water is. Qualified as 4 knots or more (being out of remit). Data on current speed in those terms doesn't seem easily available for rivers. The height is in the report and I could otherwise only find references to volume (per day/hour) for the Cleddau. Only height is available as 'live' data for that stretch.

The MAIB video certainly looked >4kn. But I don't know rivers well and it's always very hard to visually judge current, of course.

 

[Adios]

The MAIB video certainly looked >4kn. But I don't know rivers well and it's always very hard to visually judge current, of course.

Its not at all hard to know in flood vs not in flood. There are plenty of visual clues. And surely should be a absolutely basic essential bit of knowledge for someone posturing as a professional river guide. And roughly how fast water is moving is much easier to see in a narrow wood banked river than a wide tidal river with smooth empty banks. Not sure how many bridges they passes under but every one of those would have given a clear sensation of speed.

 

[Jodel]

4 kts is difficult to visualise but if you know that 2 kts = 1 metre per second it becomes much easier.

 

[Capt Popeye]

Maybe Kane was confused after this:

4 kts is difficult to visualise but if you know that 2 kts = 1 metre per second it becomes much easier.

Thanks for that info Jodel ,

Wello 4mph is a speed thats well used in normal highway speed restrictions , as Pedestrians on Foot paths and Mobility Scooters on footpaths ; we usuall measure /guage it by assuming that 4mph is the speed that normal person can walk ; so tis easy to guage the speed that a river , stream , tide is actually running at , within a reasonable observation

 

[Capt Popeye]

Not sure if it was covered in the Report , but I stumbled accross another report on this incident , but a video report .

It apparently states that the River as well as being in full flood accross the weir , to'ther side of the weir the river is tidal , and the tide was out on that time of day , so the drop from the above weir to the waters below the weir was at its greatest , so the greatest danger

Also came accross an acount by a couple of Paddle Boards about their trip out on a flooded river , that they had been out on previously ; This time the small bridges had very little headroom for the fellas , meaning that they had to lay flat on their boards ; so seems to me that suitable protective helmets , like canoe wear are really essential

FRED DRIFT ERE in Newton Abbot , county town about 10 miles away , a fella lost his life when he was walking in a river ducting , slipped into to fast flood flowing river , which goes through tunnels under the local roads etc , hitting his head many times on tunnel roofing , was later recovered dead with serious head injuries ,

 

[Romeo]

I saved a life at a tidal weir on the Clyde once.

I received an award for attempting to save the life of the suicidal gentleman who drowned. I received no award for saving the life of my hot headed young friend who was all for diving down in the water beside the weir to try to retrieve the body. George Parsonage of the Glasgow Humane society picked it up a couple of days later.

Weirs are bloody dangerous, and this group should have been nowhere near it on the day. They had a bad weather option all planned but chose not to use it because the conditions they were worried about were windy conditions further down the river, rather than flood conditions at this point. A fatal mistake.

PFD are an irrelevance, but it is interesting that it is so quickly the issue that others will focus on. Just like when someone falls off their bike and breaks their leg, the first question asked will be were they wearing a helmet, rather than what caused them to fall.