Has anything changed on VAT with Brexit deal and cruising?

[Bi111ion]

(Not a political thread please just practical).
So before the Christmas Eve deal this is what I understand
1) If your boat is not in the EU on Dec 31 then it loses its EU VAT paid status (assuming it is UK VAT paid)
2) The UK govt will charge returned goods VAT if your boat has been out of the UK for more than three years, but HMRC has extended this deadline so boats returning to the UK from before end 2021 are OK https://www.taxjournal.com/articles/vat-on-yachts-post-brexit
3) If we want to sail in the EU we can only keep our boat there for 18 months but any time out of EU waters (eg Morocco, Turkey, not Norway?) resets it.
4) We can travel in the EU for 90 days in any 180 without a visa
5) If we want to stay longer than 90 days we need a visa and that is only for one country and the rules vary by country.
6) More complicated stuff for NI that I don't understand. Please post an explanation of you do!
7) Something about Gibralta with no details announced!?

I have heard nothing from the CA's RATS or RYA on this since Christmas eve when the outline of the deal was announced. Which is fair enough given the hols, but if any forum member know differently from above please post a link to source or quote from a document. (If I have made any big factual errors I will edit the original post with a comment!)

 

[syvictoria]

I'm not aware of any changes relating to cruising or sailing as a result of the trade agreement, other than the continuation of an equivalent scheme to the EHIC (with current cards valid until their expiry) and there being no need for an international driving permit (but you do all need a green card for car insurance), both of which have already been mentioned elsewhere here.

I believe that the Independent (Simon Calder, I think) have today said that there will be 3 days grace provided on the 90/180 Schengen rules, but I personally wouldn't want to test that!

 

[Ningaloo]

The "deal" was mostly about trade and the other factors you mention such as Schengen and VAT were not being discussed. The rules we need to abide by are mostly the same as any other third country national and as such were clearly understood at the time of the referendum.
Gibraltar has "joined" Schengen which means there will be no border between Gibraltar and Spain, however time in Gibraltar will now use up Schengen days. This removes one of the places you might have considered staying to save some Schengen days. I understood that Gibraltar was also outside EU for VAT and j don't know how this might change...
On point to three, you CAN keep your boat in EU longer than 18 months - but you will then become liable for EU VAT.

 

[Daydream believer]

deleted not relevant to thread

 

[Garold]

No news on changes regarding the VAT arrangements. So some of us will be planning a one way trip back from the Med in 2021.
The journey down to Greece was a four year trip for us, but the journey back will a more speedy trip in 90 days this summer, if we choose that option.
It would seem so much fairer to give us three years relief to return back to the UK, FROM 1/1/21.

 

[stranded]

(Not a political thread please just practical).
So before the Christmas Eve deal this is what I understand
1) If your boat is not in the EU on Dec 31 then it loses its EU VAT paid status (assuming it is UK VAT paid)
2) The UK govt will charge returned goods VAT if your boat has been out of the UK for more than three years, but HMRC has extended this deadline so boats returning to the UK from before end 2021 are OK https://www.taxjournal.com/articles/vat-on-yachts-post-brexit
3) If we want to sail in the EU we can only keep our boat there for 18 months but any time out of EU waters (eg Morocco, Turkey, not Norway?) resets it.
4) We can travel in the EU for 90 days in any 180 without a visa
5) If we want to stay longer than 90 days we need a visa and that is only for one country and the rules vary by country.
6) More complicated stuff for NI that I don't understand. Please post an explanation of you do!
7) Something about Gibralta with no details announced!?

I have heard nothing from the CA's RATS or RYA on this since Christmas eve when the outline of the deal was announced. Which is fair enough given the hols, but if any forum member know differently from above please post a link to source or quote from a document. (If I have made any big factual errors I will edit the original post with a comment!)

Only addition, from an article in the Sunday Times today, is that if your boat was purchased in the EU it will be liable to UK vat if moved here after this year end.

 

[syvictoria]

No news on changes regarding the VAT arrangements. So some of us will be planning a one way trip back from the Med in 2021.
The journey down to Greece was a four year trip for us, but the journey back will a more speedy trip in 90 days this summer, if we choose that option.
It would seem so much fairer to give us three years relief to return back to the UK, FROM 1/1/21.

I thought that HMRC had now conceded that they would still allow expectational circumstances (or whatever they're called) to be applied, therefore meaning that a yacht should in theory be able to benefit from RGR at any future date, assuming that the application is made by the original exporting owner and the yacht is substantially unchanged (no major works/upgrades, etc.), just as has always been the case? I think there's another post on here somewhere from Chris Robb (CA). I will try to find it...

Edit: Here it is:

HMRC _ Clarity at last on RGR and Special Circumstances

 

[TwoHooter]

The actual document is here. I wouldn't rely on newspaper articles for a thing like this.
Agreements reached between the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the European Union
It does look as though there will be no import duty for importing a boat from the UK to the EU but I cannot find anything pertinent to VAT. There must be something in the "deal" about this because the airlines and executive jets will need to fly to and fro continuously without their aircraft becoming liable for VAT, and it's usual in trade agreements etc. for boats and aircraft to be treated the same.
I searched for yachts, recreational boats, caravans and motor caravans/homes but found nothing.

 

[syvictoria]

The actual document is here. I wouldn't rely on newspaper articles for a thing like this.
Agreements reached between the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the European Union
It does look as though there will be no import duty for importing a boat from the UK to the EU but I cannot find anything pertinent to VAT. There must be something in the "deal" about this because the airlines and executive jets will need to fly to and fro continuously without their aircraft becoming liable for VAT, and it's usual in trade agreements etc. for boats and aircraft to be treated the same.
I searched for yachts, recreational boats, caravans and motor caravans/homes but found nothing.

I think the VAT situation has largely been known for some time (and debated here numerous times at length). The RYA give the clearest account perhaps, with the addition of Chris Robb's clarification already linked to above:

Brexit | Current Affairs | Knowledge & Advice | RYA - Royal Yachting Association

 

[Garold]

I’d be pleased to see something specific from the govt on this matter.

 

[Ningaloo]

No news on changes regarding the VAT arrangements. So some of us will be planning a one way trip back from the Med in 2021.
The journey down to Greece was a four year trip for us, but the journey back will a more speedy trip in 90 days this summer, if we choose that option.
It would seem so much fairer to give us three years relief to return back to the UK, FROM 1/1/21.

I'm interested to know what your plans were when you set off, presumably post referendum if you left 4 years ago?
Were you hoping/planning to get residency, long term visas or just limit yourselves to 90 days?
I do agree that treating this as an export from the time of departure, even though at that time there was a single tax zone, seems harsh.
Are you not better off leaving the boat in the EU as it would presumably be treated as VAT paid there?

 

[Ningaloo]

I thought that HMRC had now conceded that they would still allow expectational circumstances (or whatever they're called) to be applied, therefore meaning that a yacht should in theory be able to benefit from RGR at any future date, assuming that the application is made by the original exporting owner and the yacht is substantially unchanged (no major works/upgrades, etc.), just as has always been the case?

I'd like to hear if anyone has used this "exceptional circumstances" clause to claim RGR after being outside the EU (Carribbean, World cruise etc) for more than three years.
I'm struggling to see what is exceptional about taking a boat, designed to cross oceans, on a trip exceeding 3 years.

 

[KompetentKrew]

Following the link in @Chris_Robb's post, I find that HMRC say:

Pleasure craft returning to the UK under this relief must complete a customs declaration and use customs procedure code 61 23 F01.​

Does that mean I fill in form C1331 and receive a declaration of returning goods relief in return? I'm suspicious that I won't. I bet all I'll have to go on is to tell the buyer, "yes, I returned to the UK and filled in form C1331, therefore the boat is considered VAT paid". And they'll doubt that this is enough proof that VAT is paid, and come here to ask if they should buy this boat with uncertain tax status.

 

[Garold]

I'm interested to know what your plans were when you set off, presumably post referendum if you left 4 years ago?
Were you hoping/planning to get residency, long term visas or just limit yourselves to 90 days?
I do agree that treating this as an export from the time of departure, even though at that time there was a single tax zone, seems harsh.
Are you not better off leaving the boat in the EU as it would presumably be treated as VAT paid there?

We were on our way at the time of the vote - Galicia if I remember correctly. We knew about the referendum, but never considered seriouslythat the UK would vote to leave.

We planned a round trip, over say 6-7 years.

We have been in Greece a couple of years now and did not sail at all in 2020.

Introducing the new and changed rules for returned goods relief is unreasonable because it was not an issue to consider when we left.

I would probably consider selling the boat but Greece is not an easy place to make a good sale. Also, we don’t quite feel done with sailing just yet so a sale would be perhaps a couple of years before we would choose. Brexit and the deal is forcing us to make some decisions early.

 

[Bi111ion]

I just notice the Cruising Association RATS Brexit webinar is on YouTube so accessible t non members as well

It was before the Christmas Eve deal though