Harken Windward Sheeting System for mainsheet traveller

[Gin]

My current mainsheet system is very tired, with thumbscrew type stoppers which don't grip and thus useless and a swan neck swivel jammer mounted on a central 'off-track' pad adjacent to the traveller which flops around and even with no sail up and the boom centralised simply lets go with a little rocking of the hull or wind disturbance whilst on a mooring- also useless therefore.

I have been wisely dissuaded from doing a major and very expensive upgrade utilising the complete Harken WS system if only because the traveller is on a cross beam between cockpit seats and little more than 70cm in length- any extension to the cockpit sides would require some butchery of the lovely and substantial teak slatted seating.

So, I reckon a new section of track to accommodate whatever mainsheet traveller/jammer I choose to buy would give me a much better setup and at a justifiable expense to make sailing and handling more enjoyable. I am attracted to the sales blurb for the Harken system and whilst I have not handled the kit and therefore do not properly understand the way it works that is not a concern for I can simply accept that it does work but the question is - How well?

For instance, I have read some reports from users that in medium /strong winds they are well satisfied but in light/very light winds the boom slops about and the mainsail is difficult to set properly under such conditions- I would not want to be faced with that for light wind sailing requires a lot more finesse and that problem would drive me mad!

Secondly, it seems to me that it is all very well to have a slick feathering and tightening up mainsheet traveller but if the mainsheet jammer remains 'off-track' as it is now then one would still have to adjust the mainsheet when adjusting the traveller which to some extent would defeat the advantage of the system.

I have twice e-mailed Harken for their views and comments and asked if they have a video to help me decide but not even an acknowledgement has been received (this in itself has now begun to dissuade me from giving them my money, for if a sale is so unimportant then so, probably, will customer after sales service prove to be too) and I may revert to the simpler, standard and cheaper Barton system for my little boat.

Do we have any Harken WS system users on the Forum who can answer my two questions and help me make an informed decision?

 

[Plevier]

I have it. It works well with care, but:

It's a bit delicate. When I got the boat (in fairness it was ex charter) the unit had been disabled because users couldn't cope with it. I dismantled it completely, straightened all the parts, replaced the plastic slides inside it, replaced the pins operating the jammers (they had been sawn off) it was fine. After a season I did that all again, and put in slightly bigger pins as the originals were bent. (Maybe my fault; the originals were no doubt 1/8", I replaced initially with 3mm bolts, next time I used 3.5mm.)
You must make sure the mainsheet lower block to the car toggle is a correct combination. My problem, I realised, was that the triple block could lean over too far and bend the WS mechanism. Now I have it attached with a soft shackle which is a bit of a nuisance when the sheet is slack but does prevent the bending damage.
When you leave the boat you must put a knot in each side rope by the traveller or it will be all over the place.
Yes, in light winds it can develop slack in the control ropes and slat around.
Posh solution to the previous two points is to fit a backup pair of jamming cleats to secure the traveller ropes. Harken recommend this. Only another £100 (using Harken ones) on top of the already outrageous cost!
As to working with sheet jammer off the track, don't know, my jammer is on the lower block. Doesn't sound promising though to me.

Tacking in winds above light, it's great.

 

[lw395]

Not used a Harken system, but I have used a windward sheeting system in a Merlin Rocket.
Basically, pulling the string to pull the traveller up to windward uncleats the leeward side.
Not much expensive hardware, but some subtleties in making it work well.
I think the traveller is always going to be up to windward, so you need a good kicker and strong boom etc to give the leach tension.
Maybe that system could be modified?

 

[Gin]

Thanks for such a quick response- you've reminded me that the experience of bent pins was also an issue with some other users.

The other issues which you have identified, not least another 'wallet bashing' expense to overcome design weaknesses, sound to me like a lot more trouble than it would be worth for a small boat.

Perhaps I should adopt the KISS principle

 

[Gin]

Not used a Harken system, but I have used a windward sheeting system in a Merlin Rocket.
Basically, pulling the string to pull the traveller up to windward uncleats the leeward side.
Not much expensive hardware, but some subtleties in making it work well.
I think the traveller is always going to be up to windward, so you need a good kicker and strong boom etc to give the leach tension.
Maybe that system could be modified?

Thank you, the boom is a meaty section but the running rigging is not ergonomically set up and that has to be dealt with next winter after a first season of sailing the boat to see how it works- the kicker (4:1)and other controls are all at the mast which for me is not desirable

 

[flaming]

Do we have any Harken WS system users on the Forum who can answer my two questions and help me make an informed decision?

Have the system on the Elan. It's brilliant, and I would have no hesitation whatsoever in recommending it. I do agree that it's by far the best to have the sheet cleat to the moving block, so you don't change the tension in the sheet at all when adjusting the traveller, but having sailed with both systems as main trimmer quite extensively, it's not really that much of a big deal.

Don't recognize at all the light wind issues, have certainly never had that as a problem.

The only downside is that when at rest you need to find another way of locking off the traveller on the track, as any slop and the cleats just open and the car gradually starts charging up and down the track. Not a problem on the Elan, as we just use the original cam cleats, which are on the coaming.

 

[mrming]

We also have the Harken WS system. It came with the boat but wasn't working, and I didn't even know it was a windward sheeting car until I called Harken to ask about spares.

In my case they were really helpful (ask for Stan), and we were able to rebuild the car with new slides, pins and cam cleats at a very reasonable cost.

As flaming says it's excellent. On our small boat I'm often driver and main trimmer and the WS car makes this much easier.

 

[Plevier]

Don't recognize at all the light wind issues, have certainly never had that as a problem.

If you have light wind rolling conditions where the boom is slatting, slack will develop in the control lines. Exactly the same as the issue when the boat is parked.
It means in those conditions someone has to attend to it more or less constantly (or if you have as many crew as Flaming sit them downwind!).

PS of course if you have the jammer cleats as well you can use those.

 

[Plevier]

I think the traveller is always going to be up to windward,

Not my experience, on our 35ft boat the WS car still works OK with sheet really tight and near vertical.

Maybe your system was different. In the Harken it's not the tension on the upwind line that opens the downwind jammer, it is the leeward load on the mainsheet lower block.

 

[Gin]

Have the system on the Elan. It's brilliant, and I would have no hesitation whatsoever in recommending it. I do agree that it's by far the best to have the sheet cleat to the moving block, so you don't change the tension in the sheet at all when adjusting the traveller, but having sailed with both systems as main trimmer quite extensively, it's not really that much of a big deal.

Don't recognize at all the light wind issues, have certainly never had that as a problem.

The only downside is that when at rest you need to find another way of locking off the traveller on the track, as any slop and the cleats just open and the car gradually starts charging up and down the track. Not a problem on the Elan, as we just use the original cam cleats, which are on the coaming.

Thank you
1. your comment on the positioning of the mainsheet jammer confirms what I thought and expected, so that's easily dealt with.
2. "any slop and the cleats just open and the car gradually starts charging up and down the track" this is pretty much what I can expect to experience as the setup is currently, so a solution would be needed- you refer to your existing coaming cleats dealing with that problem- are these in addition to the end stop Harken turning blocks for the trimmer or on your boat an alternative way of running the traveller control lines and the jammers being superfluous until the boat is at rest?ot used ?

 

[flaming]

This picture shows the setup as it came out of the factory,

We didn't remove the original traveler cam cleats when we changed to ww sheeting car, so after sailing we just use them to keep it centred.
Plenty of other boats just use a sail tie when at rest.

 

[Gin]

This picture shows the setup as it came out of the factory,

We didn't remove the original traveler cam cleats when we changed to ww sheeting car, so after sailing we just use them to keep it centred.
Plenty of other boats just use a sail tie when at rest.

I see thank you, that clarifies and I suppose that contrary to your experience if there was some slatting in very light airs then the leeward coaming jammer could be deployed to deactive the ww traveller car cleating system and control that situation until the wind returns? I am assuming that your car is of a similar design to this as the image was too small for me to be sure, i.e. the patent Harken jamming cleats/ww on board the car? : -

 

[lw395]

Not my experience, on our 35ft boat the WS car still works OK with sheet really tight and near vertical.

Maybe your system was different. In the Harken it's not the tension on the upwind line that opens the downwind jammer, it is the leeward load on the mainsheet lower block.

Yes the Merlin system is different.
Can't find a diagram!
Pulling the traveller line taut uncleats the other side, then you heave the traveller all the way across (about 400mm on a track mounted on top a hoop), the line then cleats as it goes tight.
The traveller line then retracts into the thwart moulding.
Works well for a 14ft two person dinghy, dunno about bigger boats!

 

[flaming]

I see thank you, that clarifies and I suppose that contrary to your experience if there was some slatting in very light airs then the leeward coaming jammer could be deployed to deactive the ww traveller car cleating system and control that situation until the wind returns? I am assuming that your car is of a similar design to this as the image was too small for me to be sure, i.e. the patent Harken jamming cleats/ww on board the car? : - View attachment 54998

Yep, that's the one.

We've never had slatting in light airs whilst actually trying to sail. Guess we've always had the crew on the leeward side healing the boat to stop that.

 

[Gin]

Yep, that's the one.

We've never had slatting in light airs whilst actually trying to sail. Guess we've always had the crew on the leeward side healing the boat to stop that.

Right, I've got it now and thanks to you and all the others for their input- much appreciated.

I shall be sailing alone more often than not so anything to make life easier is to be encouraged and until I can sort out the running rigging next winter the mainsheet solution will at least preserve my sanity during next season.