Hands up those who have been fined for not having a registration document

[toad_oftoadhall]

Toad has asked specifically for the legal authority on the matter in terms of the exact wording of the original law. Even though there is a certain reliance on the police for knowing the law, this still does not satisfy Toad's requirements.

If the legislation is not available on the web for all to see I cannot see any way that he to clear this up without resorting to a solicitor who deals with specific area - probably French, and requiring hands to be crossed with silver.

Absolutely, and it's even worse than that.

If there *is* an offence. It's easy. One of the huge number of people who claim to know about it on YBW just have to say what it is and cite their source. Then all I have to do is verify it can be applied to British Flagged Ships that don't carry their original SSR. Easy peasy.

If there *isn't* an offense there simply is no resolution. Nobody knows or ever will know every French Law. No matter how many legal experts claim they don't know of any such law there will *always* be a possibility that there's some law on the statute books of France that few people know of.

In summary, since it's impossible to prove a negative my best hope of a resolution is if the law does exist. Given that over three years nobody's been able point to it, and the Cherbourg Rozzers have never heard of it, it doesn't look good for me.

 

[Conachair]

I'm sure a lot of people will be grateful for this

Name them.

 

[Pye_End]

If there *is* an offence. It's easy. One of the huge number of people who claim to know about it on YBW just have to say what it is and cite their source. Then all I have to do is verify it can be applied to British Flagged Ships that don't carry their original SSR. Easy peasy.

Having been done by the German police over another maritime matter (one that you disbelieved when it came up before), it seems to me to be very easy to put it all behind you, but still remember why you got it in the first place. I don't keep receipts for my shopping, so why keep something from some years ago - assuming the information is on them in the first place (and I certainly do not recall the original law on mine at the time)? I do not see why you find the experiences are so unbelievable, particularly since there is a commonality in many cases, and is backed up by the RYA's advice for going abroad. If you are faced with an on the spot fine by a foreign policeman in a foreign port whilst on holiday, or a trip down to their local police station, then it is human nature to pay up there and then, even if you have a strong suspician that they are wrong. This was certainly the case when I was 'done'.

In summary, since it's impossible to prove a negative my best hope of a resolution is if the law does exist. Given that over three years nobody's been able point to it, and the Cherbourg Rozzers have never heard of it, it doesn't look good for me.

Dear Mr/Ms French lawyer:

A number of boat owners have been fined for not having registration docs for their boat whilst visiting French ports. Please can you cite the legal authority for these incidents.

Yours

Le Crapaud

Makes sense to ask a professional if it means that much to you. Can't say it will effect my desire to carry an SSR when going abroad.

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

Name them.

I am, I'm sure you are. Trahona is. Tim is. There's four.

Do you think anyone would *not* be grateful for the post?

 

[timbartlett]

Dear Mr/Ms French lawyer:

A number of boat owners have been fined for not having registration docs for their boat whilst visiting French ports. Please can you cite the legal authority for these incidents.

Yours

Le Crapaud

And the reply would probably be along the lines of:-

Cher Monsieur
J'ai peur que je ne puisse pas répondre à votre question, car je ne sais rien au sujet de la loi maritime Britannique. Je me spécialise dans des accidents agricoles et le transfert de terre. Je vous propose contact un avocat Britannique pour le conseil sur la documentation de yacht.
Je joins ma facture.

 

[timbartlett]

If you are faced with an on the spot fine by a foreign policeman in a foreign port whilst on holiday, or a trip down to their local police station, then it is human nature to pay up there and then,

Exactly. And when a policeman discovers that foreign yotties can be relied upon to cough up fixed penalties without asking awkward questions, it is human nature for him to call on a few foreign yotties if he's a bit low on his quota that month.

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

Having been done by the German police over another maritime matter (one that you disbelieved when it came up before), it seems to me to be very easy to put it all behind you, but still remember why you got it in the first place. I don't keep receipts for my shopping, so why keep something from some years ago - assuming the information is on them in the first place (and I certainly do not recall the original law on mine at the time)? I do not see why you find the experiences are so unbelievable, particularly since there is a commonality in many cases, and is backed up by the RYA's advice for going abroad. If you are faced with an on the spot fine by a foreign policeman in a foreign port whilst on holiday, or a trip down to their local police station, then it is human nature to pay up there and then, even if you have a strong suspician that they are wrong. This was certainly the case when I was 'done'.

Thinking a handful of people who have all been fined *completely* different amounts for an offence they don't even know is reliable evidence for *one single* fixed penalty, seems a little naive. Especially when we *know* some are innacurate.

Lets be honest, you're accepting that the penalty for one offence dropped by two-thirds one year then trebled the next. Likely?

I think any of the following are possible:

1) Language difficulty causing a total misunderstanding of the offence they've commited. (Explains the wildly different fines)
2) The Rozzers *thought* they were French Resident.
3) The rozzers just tried it on to get their conviction rate up - maybe they think Brits confess to anything and never refuse a fixed penalty? [1]

I bet there are countless more possiblities that allow people to walk away from a cash handover to foreign Policeman with a misunderstanding of what they've done.

Mistakes over fixed penalties happen in Britain, it's hard to imagine why they wouldn't happen in France.

Bit of a digression, but I'm astounded that the fixed penalty does not state the offence (even in code form). In fact I'm not sure I believe it. It's madness to not give the offender a carbon copy of exactly what the Policeman has written down. It protects the Policeman from having to sort out any arguments from the offender coming back and saying he was misinformed about the offence. For that reason, and the total lack of any further information I'm really not sure about Tim's source. [2]

[1] NOBODY claims to have been fined by a court. In every case people acted as their own judge and jury and took the fixed penalty. *They* decided they'd committed the offence, not the police.
[2] I knew I'd be able to disagree with Tim sooner or later!

 

[Pye_End]

Reality v's law has already been discussed by you and others.

Therefore any reality is irrelevant in your quest, unless somebody happens to have some official paperwork with very relevant inforamation (ie citement of law) on it. Your belief/disbelief in people is a red herring. It appears we do not have a specialist French marine lawer here, so I can see no other option for you than to contact somebody in the system direct.

Where does that get you? If some French lawyer says that you are right - there is none, and yet people are still asked for an SSR, then most people will carry one, and when faced with on the spot fines will pay them. So what is the point of your quest?

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

Your belief/disbelief in people is a red herring.

Agree, first hand accounts tell us nothing unless they provide enough information to identify the offence.

I only got lured into discussing the veracity of first hand accounts by your post at 20:57 which went into quite a lot of detail about them, considering you agree with me that they're a red herring.

If some French lawyer says that you are right

Right? Right about what? To be "right" I'd have to know the answer, and as I keep saying, I don't. What definition of 'me being right' did you have in mind when you chose that word?

So what is the point of your quest?

I wasn't aware there had to be one.

 

[Pye_End]

Agree, first hand accounts tell us nothing unless they provide enough information to identify the offence.

I only got lured into discussing the veracity of first hand accounts by your post at 20:57 which went into quite a lot of detail about them, considering you agree with me that they're a red herring.

Think it pre-dates my post. See 1 and 2 for a start...

I wasn't aware there had to be one.

You seemed to agree in post 41 that this was what you were after.

So come on, why don't you seek professional help on this matter, and what will you do with the information once you have it?

 

[al.carpenter]

Haaaarrrrrrr!!!!!!

Dt 60-799 du 2.8.1960 - Art 2. / ssr registration or documents to carry on board british yachts

looked all over the official Law books (one hour and a half of headache inducing bloody reading, when I am allergic to any law jargon...) using "vlex.fr "the law search engine and "the Douanes" website but could not find the relevent articles regarding documents to be carried on UK vessels, nor the above stated fine nomenclatura... very strange.
So I sent a email direct to the Douanes in charge of Navigation de Plaisance asking them the big question and requesting a written answer for everyone to see on this forum... so wait and see. rgds and fair winds...

 

[Tranona]

Just a suggestion - You will probably find that the law (if it exists) does not apply exclusively to British (or non-French) yachts but to all yachts, otherwise it would contravene EU law on discrimination. It would probably not be "maritime" law perse but law on registration.

 

[al.carpenter]

but?

Just a suggestion - You will probably find that the law (if it exists) does not apply exclusively to British (or non-French) yachts but to all yachts, otherwise it would contravene EU law on discrimination. It would probably not be "maritime" law perse but law on registration.

I spent 20 minutes this afternoon on the phone with a gendarme maritime and he told me many times... the only law a british yacht has to comply to regarding documents is the british law... and that the only thing they can fine a british yacht for is overspeeding or drink-sailing or mooring/sailing where they should not.... call them yourself and "hear" for yourself, why should he tell me fibs when he is THE law enforcer? or http://www.douane.gouv.fr/page.asp?id=263#4 and at "ou par couriel cliquez ici" you ask your question and, even in english they will answer it...

 

[westernman]

Dt 60-799 du 2.8.1960 - Art 2. applies to the registration documents for French yachts.

All yachts in French waters are assumed conveniently by the authorities to be French unless they can produce satisfactory documentation to the contrary.

Exactly what this documention is, will vary from Gendarme to Gendarme, the day of the week, the side of bed he got out of, and probably to a large extent by the kind of attitude he got from the person being controlled.

Just telling the Gendarme that you need no documentation is not going to get you very far.

Check out the situation with Italian boats of less than 10M on when visiting France a few years back. They do not have to have registration either, and a lot of them got fined with the above offence (some of them fined 3000 euros for a repeat offence) and eventually a compromise was agreed that the Italian insurance certificate and the receipt from the purchase of the boat along with a French translation would suffice as proof that the boat is not French.

I doubt that what is considered sufficient documentary proof to prove that a yacht is British has been formally established.

Some one did mention that his insurance certificate was considered sufficient (as in France, a French insurance company will normally only insure something registered in France, hence they assume the same applies for an English insurance company).

 

[al.carpenter]

Dt 60-799 du 2.8.1960 - Art 2.

is supposed to relate to french law regarding a fixed penalty concerning lack of titre de navigation but

http://vlex.fr/jurisdictions/FR/search?textolibre=Dt+60-799+du+2.8.1960+-+Art+2.

shows no result and since every article has to be "coded" and has to appear in the Journal Officiel de la Republique Francaise, it means it is not legal or maybe not legal anymore...(from the date, it is looking suspicious to me...)

my gut feelings are that (I am ashamed to say, being french myself) you have well and truly been "conned" by a bunch of either crooked real custom officers or good acting hoods pretending to be officers.
This is what make this thread interesting, lets get down to the bottom of it and spread the word...

 

[Tranona]

I spent 20 minutes this afternoon on the phone with a gendarme maritime and he told me many times... the only law a british yacht has to comply to regarding documents is the british law... and that the only thing they can fine a british yacht for is overspeeding or drink-sailing or mooring/sailing where they should not.... call them yourself and "hear" for yourself, why should he tell me fibs when he is THE law enforcer? or http://www.douane.gouv.fr/page.asp?id=263#4 and at "ou par couriel cliquez ici" you ask your question and, even in english they will answer it...

I think this account is very simplistic and flawed. Once again the law is registration of ALL boats. There is actually no requirement in UK law to have ANY documentation or insurance so he is likely to come across British boats with no documents at all if what he says is correct. I think what he is telling you is that he cannot enforce specific laws such as the need to carry flares or liferafts, because that is what is covered by UNCLOS, but you are subject to other laws such as speeding, drinking etc when in France.

If you read any first hand accounts of British yachts being inspected by authorities in France (and indeed most other Eurpoean countries) the common theme is that they are ONLY interested in SSR (or other registration document) for the boat and passports for the crew. This is so consistent, that even if it not a legal requirement, there is clearly something deeply embedded in French officialdom that makes them ask for it (and appear to apply penalties if it is not available).

The fact that this position is supported by all the authoritative sources of guidance on the subject, and the UK government's willingness to create a register in reponse to French requests suggests it is more than a myth!

 

[westernman]

is supposed to relate to french law regarding a fixed penalty concerning lack of titre de navigation but

http://vlex.fr/jurisdictions/FR/search?textolibre=Dt+60-799+du+2.8.1960+-+Art+2.

shows no result and since every article has to be "coded" and has to appear in the Journal Officiel de la Republique Francaise, it means it is not legal or maybe not legal anymore...(from the date, it is looking suspicious to me...)

my gut feelings are that (I am ashamed to say, being french myself) you have well and truly been "conned" by a bunch of either crooked real custom officers or good acting hoods pretending to be officers.
This is what make this thread interesting, lets get down to the bottom of it and spread the word...

http://vlex.fr/vid/arr-immatriculat...[buscable_type]=Pais&query[textolibre]=60-799

 

[al.carpenter]

I do think you should invest in a 45p phone call to this Gendarmerie number I mentioned earlier... The Law is the Law point. There is NO other possible interpretation other than what is writen in the "Code".
When I said to the officer - can I quote you, can you let me say on an international sailing forum that a british yacht in french waters does not have to be ssr registered and assume responsability if someone get fined?- his answer was loud and clear :
"as long as the british craft is legal in GB, it is legal in french waters..."
hence cannot be fined for not showing a document which it is not legally required to hold. My own experience over the years tend to prove he is right, I have been controlled tenth of times and never had a problem. May be, being french made it difficult for any would be "undelicat" officer to try and fill his pockets but I very much doubt anybody would try it...

 

[BrendanS]

I do think you should invest in a 45p phone call to this Gendarmerie number I mentioned earlier... The Law is the Law point. There is NO other possible interpretation other than what is writen in the "Code".
When I said to the officer - can I quote you, can you let me say on an international sailing forum that a british yacht in french waters does not have to be ssr registered and assume responsability if someone get fined?- his answer was loud and clear :
"as long as the british craft is legal in GB, it is legal in french waters..."
hence cannot be fined for not showing a document which it is not legally required to hold. My own experience over the years tend to prove he is right, I have been controlled tenth of times and never had a problem. May be, being french made it difficult for any would be "undelicat" officer to try and fill his pockets but I very much doubt anybody would try it...

The vast majority of sensible people have argued this point for years on here in the various forums. A small vocal minority just take issue with any common sense argument, and find dozens of reasons not to listen to commonsense

 

[al.carpenter]

http://vlex.fr/vid/arr-immatriculat...[buscable_type]=Pais&query[textolibre]=60-799

well done michaelchapman, you are a better researcher than me (I just pasted the fine with the 1960 date...) still, you were fined for an offence that you should not have been concerned with and I suspect the douaniers knew that...and, as usual, the uniform probably added weight to their arguments... and maybe, the fine did not even end in their own pocket...