Hallberg-Rassy vs Bavaria

[DueSouth]

I am looking to buy my first boat...

I know there is no comparison between these two makes, did my research and understand that a Hallberg-Rassy is a very special yacht. What to buy though on my budget?

I can get a Hallberg-Rassy 36 from 1993, but there is a Bavaria 36 from 2011 (18 years younger) for about £10k less than the Hallberg-Rassy...I could even get a Bavaria 36 from 2004 (still 11 years younger than HR) for £30k less than the Hallberg-Rassy...

I know it is an impossible comparison, but the questions are:

1. Is a circa 30 year old Hallberg-Rassy still a good buy?
2. If I don't plan to cross oceans, is a Bavaria not much better value?

All opinions most welcome.

Thanks.

 

[AngusMcDoon]

While the build quality is high on a HR, any nearly 30 year old boat is likely to need a bunch more money spent on all the kit that has got old and is failing - engine, prop, tanks, canvas, electronics, upholstery, pumps, galley, winches, decks, and more that you don't expect.

The 11 year old boat, apart from sails and standing rigging, should be pretty much ready to go.

 

[ashtead]

You will tend to gain views from owners of each brand but let me declare an interest as a former Bav34 from new in 2001 which we sailed around south and cross channel sometimes in company with a HR34. A lot is down to your aims but a few thoughts:-
1 the HR being older might need more expensive repairs eg a new teak deck,new deck, rigging but clearly dependent on owner. If you a keen DIY er then fettling your boat might be a pleasure though;
2 a Bav tends to sail faster I suspect in modest sailing winds than an equivalent HR but needs reefing sooner-we had to ease sails sometimes in modest wind to slow down sometimes;
3 look at where the main sheet traveller is on each model -any differences you prefer?
4 space below-how many stern cabins do you need -any small crew who might one day want separate stern cabins?
5galey areas -that OB Bav is small -would the old HR be better ?
6 I believe you have to step up on to seats to step round wheel on bav36 to face aft to reverse-is the HR any better?
7 cockpit size -do either boat have a cockpit tent you can sit in?
8can you lie down on the seats on an HR -the Bav have long cockpit seats so good for snoozing/sunbathing comfort;
8 you might enjoy a bowthruster -marginal on each but maybe on HR as sailed by older folk often but rare on a Bav perhaps;
9in mast or stack pack mainsail- each have their fans but which suits you-again HR often in mast so smaller sail,jamming risks etc;
10 Mooring style -do you like stern to-the Bav is simple to reverse step off stern -how easy is a HR ?
11 do you want a lead keel of the HR?
My feel is HR 36 are harder to find but might have more expense going forward but clearly that turns on each particular vessel ,engine hours etc.
look on the websites of eac make for owners clubs and ask for comments there. Do you want to join an owners club and which group might suit your style?
I guess the 2004 electronics on the Bav36 eg old raymarine might need replacing but hopefully on the HR the kit has already been upgraded?
lastly was the history of ownership of each and previous sailing locations I won’t touch on debate of buying ex charter Bav but search for views on forum.
Good luck in search.

 

[Kelpie]

The HR at 30yrs old might be a better buy IF the engine, sails, rigging, instruments, upholstery, etc etc have been kept updated. The teak decks are a potential financial time bomb as well, which Bavarias don't have.

There's not anything wrong with Bavarias. People cross oceans in them. But they are designed mostly for the charter market, so you need to weigh up whether that works for you.

 

[DueSouth]

You will tend to gain views from owners of each brand but let me declare an interest as a former Bav34 from new in 2001 which we sailed around south and cross channel sometimes in company with a HR34. A lot is down to your aims but a few thoughts:-
1 the HR being older might need more expensive repairs eg a new teak deck,new deck, rigging but clearly dependent on owner. If you a keen DIY er then fettling your boat might be a pleasure though;
2 a Bav tends to sail faster I suspect in modest sailing winds than an equivalent HR but needs reefing sooner-we had to ease sails sometimes in modest wind to slow down sometimes;
3 look at where the main sheet traveller is on each model -any differences you prefer?
4 space below-how many stern cabins do you need -any small crew who might one day want separate stern cabins?
5galey areas -that OB Bav is small -would the old HR be better ?
6 I believe you have to step up on to seats to step round wheel on bav36 to face aft to reverse-is the HR any better?
7 cockpit size -do either boat have a cockpit tent you can sit in?
8can you lie down on the seats on an HR -the Bav have long cockpit seats so good for snoozing/sunbathing comfort;
8 you might enjoy a bowthruster -marginal on each but maybe on HR as sailed by older folk often but rare on a Bav perhaps;
9in mast or stack pack mainsail- each have their fans but which suits you-again HR often in mast so smaller sail,jamming risks etc;
10 Mooring style -do you like stern to-the Bav is simple to reverse step off stern -how easy is a HR ?
11 do you want a lead keel of the HR?
My feel is HR 36 are harder to find but might have more expense going forward but clearly that turns on each particular vessel ,engine hours etc.
look on the websites of eac make for owners clubs and ask for comments there. Do you want to join an owners club and which group might suit your style?
I guess the 2004 electronics on the Bav36 eg old raymarine might need replacing but hopefully on the HR the kit has already been upgraded?
lastly was the history of ownership of each and previous sailing locations I won’t touch on debate of buying ex charter Bav but search for views on forum.
Good luck in search.

Thanks for your thoughts, much appreciated.

 

[Stemar]

As Kelpie says, the HR might be a good buy; in which case it's what I'd favour. For me, the HR just has so much more "row away" quality, that feeling as you row away from your boat, look back and just think, "Yeah, glad I own her!" That's a very personal thing, so there are plenty who'd disagree with me.

I'm not sure you could say an 11 year old boat will be ready to go. If the sails are original, they'll be knackered, as will the standing rigging if she's been raced hard. An engine that's not been loved could be knackered, the interior tired and electronics coming to the end of their life.

I'd look at both and make a list of what you need to spend on each - and there'll be plenty, which ever you choose (welcome to the wonderful world of yachting ?). Check each out with your head and choose the sensible buy*. If both are fairly sensible, buy the one that whispers "Buy me" to your heart

*There are strong arguments that there's no such thing with boats

 

[whaup]

1. Is a circa 30 year old Hallberg-Rassy still a good buy?

It may be: HRs are often (not always) well cared for by affluent, enthusiastic owners. They are sought after and attract a premium, which helps support a strong market for those selling.

1. If I don't plan to cross oceans, is a Bavaria not much better value?

Yes, almost certainly.

IMHO, for most usage, typical examples etc:

Objectively, the Bavaria is better by a significant margin.
Subjectively, the HR is better by a significant margin.

 

[DueSouth]

It may be: HRs are often (not always) well cared for by affluent, enthusiastic owners. They are sought after and attract a premium, which helps support a strong market for those selling.

Yes, almost certainly.

IMHO, for most usage, typical examples etc:

Objectively, the Bavaria is better by a significant margin.
Subjectively, the HR is better by a significant margin.

Thank you for clarifying and making it a much easier decision...

 

[johnalison]

There really is no comparison between the two since they are so different. There will be practical reasons for preferring the Bavaria, but I know which one I would want to be out in when the going gets tough. The internal arrangements are also very different, the HR having heads forward, however, an owner may prefer the more refined furnishings and greater comfort. The only answer would be to spend some time on each and see which is for you.

 

[Laysula]

In my opinion, older Bavarias are better than newer ones. We have a 350 dated 1993 and is in excellent condition. The early ones we're designed by Axel Mohnhaupt to a very high standard, far more so than the later ones as price became important.

 

[Graham376]

OP makes no mention of proposed use for the boat, local sailing or long distance? Of the two makes, I would prefer to have HR than a Bav but, what put us off buying one we looked at many years ago was the cost of replacing teak decks when time expired, possibly around £40k for a 36 on today's prices. Teak decks not a good idea if heading to hotter climates.

 

[AngusMcDoon]

I'm not sure you could say an 11 year old boat will be ready to go. If the sails are original, they'll be knackered, as will the standing rigging if she's been raced hard. An engine that's not been loved could be knackered, the interior tired and electronics coming to the end of their life.

I excluded sails and rigging. There will be some 11 year old boats that have not been cared for, but most will be absolutely fine. Almost all owners value their investment sufficiently to look after it in the first decade at least. I've never seen a boat that age that's an uncared for mess. I'm sure some exist.

 

[dunedin]

Objectively, the Bavaria is better by a significant margin.
Subjectively, the HR is better by a significant margin.

Not sure I would agree that a 30 year old HR 36 is “subjectively” better. I would love an HR 372, which combines old school HR interior and build quality with much better sailing ability and, IMHO, better looks. But the HR 36 is a much older design.
Also a 30 year old engine and teak decks could be walk away factors, unless already replaced.

 

[LinTeal]

As a former Sadler owner I used to have a fairly dim view of Bavarias.However I now own a 2000 Bavaria 34 and can honestly say I am delighted with it.The boat is well engineered and the woodwork down below is like new.Yes I would love a 2000 HR 34 but not at over twice the cost.Having said that an HR would come out ahead of a Bavaria re sea kindliness. It might be worth watching the utube Salty Lass which features their Bav 36 ,for more of an insight.

 

[whaup]

Not sure I would agree that a 30 year old HR 36 is “subjectively” better. I would love an HR 372, which combines old school HR interior and build quality with much better sailing ability and, IMHO, better looks. But the HR 36 is a much older design.
Also a 30 year old engine and teak decks could be walk away factors, unless already replaced.

No argument from me: we even went to look over an attractively priced 2001 Bavaria 40: Nice boat. Far better value. I expect the new owners are very happy with it, and that we would be, too, if we'd bought it. It was newer, would have been faster, more space inside. Overall, a much better package than an old HR.

Funny things, boats.

 

[Graham376]

No argument from me: we even went to look over an attractively priced 2001 Bavaria 40: Nice boat. Far better value. I expect the new owners are very happy with it, and that we would be, too, if we'd bought it. It was newer, would have been faster, more space inside. Overall, a much better package than an old HR.
Funny things, boats.

But not when it kicks up really rough.

 

[Tranona]

Have been through this process twice, and on both occasions chose a Bavaria, although new. In the first case (over 20 years ago) the choice was between a 8-10 year old "quality" boat or a new Bavaria. Having tried both and looked at a wide range of used boats found the Bavaria much better suited for my use (in the med) plus was disappointed at the poor condition of the used boats. Kept the Bavaria for 14 years, first 6 years as charter then a couple of years semi liveaboard before bringing back to the UK. Can honestly say that the boat did everything I wanted, required very little work or replacement and sold easily to someone who took it back to the Med.

When it came to replacement I could have afforded a new HR, or of course an older used one, but just found it very difficult to justify the additional cost. Of course the HR feels nicer and is probably a better sailing boat in heavier conditions, but most of the hardware is exactly the same as on the Bavaria. So I bought a new 2015 33 cruiser fully loaded for about half the cost of a similar new 310, and less than a 15 year old HR 31 or 34. While one can different makes of boats in the abstract, it is only when you get to the point of being able to afford to buy one that you know what is the right decision for you.

With regard to Bavarias, it is a myth that "older ones are better built" - while building methods and finish vary over the years there are really no "lemons". The early 2000s boats which were churned out in their thousands have stood up to hard use very well and are still modern enough in terms of layout and equipment to be practical cruising boats for typical UK coastal sailing - and of course many have done far more than that. In the mid 30 foot size to me the highlights are the early 36, 2005-8 37 and the best of the lot the 2013 (and still current) Farr designed 37.

Worth looking at the Bavaria forum www.bavariayacht.org to see what owners talk about and particularly the survey of faults/problems. Unfortunately it seems to be down today.

Good luck with your boat hunting - the right boat for you will find you!

 

[westernman]

But not when it kicks up really rough.

In both cases you are better off staying in the club house bar.

 

[Skellum]

Have been through this process twice, and on both occasions chose a Bavaria, although new. In the first case (over 20 years ago) the choice was between a 8-10 year old "quality" boat or a new Bavaria. Having tried both and looked at a wide range of used boats found the Bavaria much better suited for my use (in the med) plus was disappointed at the poor condition of the used boats. Kept the Bavaria for 14 years, first 6 years as charter then a couple of years semi liveaboard before bringing back to the UK. Can honestly say that the boat did everything I wanted, required very little work or replacement and sold easily to someone who took it back to the Med.

When it came to replacement I could have afforded a new HR, or of course an older used one, but just found it very difficult to justify the additional cost. Of course the HR feels nicer and is probably a better sailing boat in heavier conditions, but most of the hardware is exactly the same as on the Bavaria. So I bought a new 2015 33 cruiser fully loaded for about half the cost of a similar new 310, and less than a 15 year old HR 31 or 34. While one can different makes of boats in the abstract, it is only when you get to the point of being able to afford to buy one that you know what is the right decision for you.

With regard to Bavarias, it is a myth that "older ones are better built" - while building methods and finish vary over the years there are really no "lemons". The early 2000s boats which were churned out in their thousands have stood up to hard use very well and are still modern enough in terms of layout and equipment to be practical cruising boats for typical UK coastal sailing - and of course many have done far more than that. In the mid 30 foot size to me the highlights are the early 36, 2005-8 37 and the best of the lot the 2013 (and still current) Farr designed 37.

Worth looking at the Bavaria forum www.bavariayacht.org to see what owners talk about and particularly the survey of faults/problems. Unfortunately it seems to be down today.

Good luck with your boat hunting - the right boat for you will find you!

The 2005-8 Bav 37 looks a nice yacht. What do you think of the 2005 generation Oceanis 37 which also looks nice?

 

[Graham376]

In both cases you are better off staying in the club house bar.

One doesn't always have the luxury. Last time we were out in a decent blow, it came unexpectedly after a quiet night in sheltered anchorage. After a few miles motoring to get clear clear of Cape St.Vincent, 3 reefs with 40 - 44 knots on the beam for a few hours. We have long chord Scheel keel with skegged rudder and autopilot coped OK but long keeled Warrior we were in company with had less leeway. I don't think it would have been as comfortable in boat with high aspect keel, spade rudder and far less wetted area.