Halcyon 23 - I found one cheap, so have few questions

[slawosz]

Hi,
I found nice, according to ad, sailable Halcyon for sale, 3 keels version. As addition to my dinghy sailing, it would be nice to have something bigger moored (probably near Heybridge Basin on River Blackwater). I am not planning sailing past Mersea, since I would like to crew first with someone experienced - I have sea experience, but not enough. In the beginning, I will sail mostly during high tide, relatively close to my mooring.
Anyway, I would rather sail on lakes, but there are none near London.
But going back to boat. It looks like bargain, as its not most wanted on the market. I will inspect it, as I have some boat diy experience, but my concern is fuselage - is there any way I can see if it can be seriously affected by osmosis? Also, is there any way to check keel bolts, or they should be fine? Also, I don't know how to see if mast is due to change - is it possible to check it? With rest of the boat, I think I can check myself - see the engine, check space below cockpit floor, and health of wooden elements.

Boat need to be painted, but its not big deal for me as I am happy with some TLC. Plus, I don't know if I will use it a lot... However, its very possible I will share it so it will get some usage.
Is there anything else I need to know before seeing boat?
I know its a stable, strudy boat, exactly what I am looking for - for speeding I have Laser in my local club in London. Plus, I like how it look and design overall - it looks (in my opinion) much better than many newer boats, it's like transition from classic, wooden shape to 70's bulky boats, which none of them looks very nice (in my opinion).

Thanks!

 

[grumpy_o_g]

People more knowledgeable than me will no doubt respond but I'd say:

Osmosis - it will have osmosis to some extent but that doesn't really matter. It's not going to sink from it unless you can see horrendous blisters and decontamination - the real problem is more resale value if you have visible blistering than any actual danger. If the hull isn't blistering and isn't saturated (I'm guessing it's been out the water a while) then I'd not worry - it's not worth drying the hull and epoxy coating it unless you want to Coppercoat it. You could buy a moisture meter but you may struggle to interpret the readings without experience - I gather it's not just a question of stabbing the hull and seeing if it's above/below a certain value.

Keel bolts - the only way to check them is to pull them. That can be hours of entertainment for anyone watching but is probably worth doing if you have concerns - if the centre keel is ballasted and isn't encapsulated on the triple keel version it's something I would do. The exposed bolt heads can look fine on bolts that are barely holding the keel on hence the need to actually pull them. Having said that I'd still sail her quite happily until it was convenient to pull the keelbolts unless I had a specific reason to distrust the bolts.

Mast - take it down if it's not down already and just do a thorough visual inspection for damage - holes, dents, tears, corrosion that's more than just cosmetic, etc. If it looks alright then do anything you want to do whilst the mast is down (replace any standing rigging that looks damaged, new windex, nav lights, etc. Also check that the running rigging runs smoothly and isn't snagging, blocks aren't worn or stiff, etc. - if you can rung the mainsail up and furl and unfurl the jib a few times before you drop the mast and check any lights or electronics at the masthead or on the spreaders BEFORE you drop the mast then you can fix any problems while it's down. If all looks OK then I'd simply stick it back up and sail it until it breaks.

It's a perfect boat for the Blackwater (says he who last sailed on the Blackwater about 40 years ago) but I'd make sure you have decent propulsion, inboard or outboard, unless you can afford to wait out the tide when the winds drops or is against you - especially if you're going to be at Heybridge.

 

[Tam Lin]

As a Blackwater sailor I will reiterate the bit in the post above about a reliable engine if you want to get back to your mooring in time! Sailing against wind and tide can mean going backwards in a light wind! Inboards can cost a lot of money in repairs, a reliable outboard is cheaper.

 

[oldharry]

1st question is, why is it cheap? Is it really because there is very limited market for boats like these - which is true, or is it because the owner is trying to offload a boat with issues which will push it beyond market value to fix? The single most expensive thing aboard is the engine. Boats like these will never recoup the cost of re-engining. Think £3 - 4k if the engine is on its last legs, unless you are a competent DIY mechanic who can either fix it properly get a serviceable 2nd hand unit and install it yourself. Even then you may be looking well into 4 figures for parts. I was quoted over £2k for a crankshaft for a 12hp Albin a few years back, while replacing a single main bearing on a small Volvo will be will cost well in excess of £600 by the time you have bought all the gaskets etc. Add labour, if you cant DIY.

2nd, the rig. Sails, sprayhoods, dodgers even standing rigging can run up alarmingly big bills if they need replacing. Again, big savings here if you have the skills and tools to replace standing rigging, otherwise allow at least £125 per wire, and theres 8 of them on a Halcyon, so the bill could run into 4 figures.... unless of course you have access to a proper hydraulic talurit splicer and do it yourself for around £150. Alternatively invest several hundred in swageless Norseman terminals at around £30 each. You need 16, so not a bank breaker. Stainless wire can be cut very cleanly with a thin angle grinder cutting blade. But its quite a couple of days quite hard work. I know, got the tee shirt! Walk away if the mast is at all badly corroded or damaged. Unless again you are lucky and can find a second hand one. for a few hundred. Otherwise you may be looking as much as £2k. Ditto sails. new ones will cost a lot more than the rest of the boat. Second hand from somewhere like CJ Sails in Chichester can get round that, but even so budget several hundred.

Halcyons were pretty solid, so dont worry about osmosis unless its really rampant. But dont expect to sell on easily with a blistered bottom! You wont get your investment in improvements back! dont worry too much about keel bolts unless there are rust stains down the ballast stub. (not the same as a rusty casting. If theres a problem you will see the difference. Bolt on bilge plates are easily enough sorted if you do it yourself.

Another major cost item is the bunk cushions. Can you live with whats there? If not budget £800 + for new.

Rotten woodwork will also rapidly swallow up any saving on your initial outlay.

So you get the picture? A cheap boat is one thing. A cheap boat that needs much work work is quite simply not a cheap boat. Go and find one thats reasonably well looked after and more or less ready to go, and save yourself a lot of grief, a great deal of cash, and a lot of time! Very rarely will a cheap small boat be in prime condition, so how much can you live with, and how much must be done to make her safe and livable with? If the answer is 'quite a bit', then walk away. On the other hand there are quite a number of older boats around which are not easily saleable, that are nevertheless perfectly usable if you dont mind it showing its age. If you are able to DIY theres big savings to be made which might make it viable, but even so you will almost certainly spend more on it than buying a good 'un at a fair price to start with.

But look first at the engine: like an older car, if the engine's not right, then neither is the rest of it, however good it looks.

 

[Tam Lin]

Good post oldharry!

 

[slawosz]

Thank you, these are very good answers. I am DIY person, so I am even happy to do some stuff - living in flat in London does not let me to do lot of it. I have experience with boats work, so I am not very concerned here. Hopefully I will be able to see most of the defects - but now I have good list to check.
Regarding engine, I wonder what I can check during like 10 minute test run (boat is out of water). If it sounds right, sure, if smoke is white, not black or blue, if RPM is stable. And I asked owner to have engine cold, so I will see how well it starts. What I can do more to see if its condition is right?

 

[nicappotamus 2]

take someone else with you who knows a bit about boats. This is essential as they will spot stuff that you miss, and also they won't be looking at it with their heart, just their head so might stop you "falling in love" and glossing over the dodgy bits

there's probably a few from this forum who would volunteer if you ask

or get in touch with the local sailing club, go in the bar and ask for a hand - for the price of a few beers there will be someone who knows their stuff

 

[RupertW]

Boats under 25 foot can be very cheap even in reasonable condition - I did a lot of work on my GK24 in the last few years including new sail covers and jib strip, repainted decks, all new running rigging, new autohelm, rewired boat etc etc and biggest of all a brand new inboard engine for more than I thought the boat was worth 18 months before I gave it away for £150.

I'd tried about 5 years before to sell it for £5k then £3k then let it get neglected a bit before doing it back up again and sailing again for a couple of seasons but with a £2500 marina bill imminent it was a no brainer to give it away.