GPS errors

wooslehunter

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Re: could you explain a bit further

Here's another way to think of it. Think in terms of distance off. If you're doing this on a chart, by using something like dipping distance. If you have one point, you know you're somewhere on a circle around the point. Two points, and you have two intersecting circles so two possible solutions. In reality we can generally ignore one of them so we have a fix. Divers use this all the time. It's tri-lateration rather than tri-angulation.

Extend this to 3-D space & assume we don't know about the earth's surface. Distance from one satellite gives us a position somewhere on a sphere. Two distances give two intersecting spheres. i.e. a circle. 3 distances give three intersecting spheres which result in 3 circles and a 3-D fix. As someone already said, time is the killer & we need the fourth satellite to calculate that. Hence 4 satellites for a 3-D fix.

I've two GPSs on board: ones a really old Apelco & the other is a Garmin GPS72 handheld that installed permanently. As far as accuracy is concirned, they rarely disagree by much. So small in fact I've never worked it out. I have logged the Garmin while sitting on a window sill at home and generally get a "wander" of around 8m & that's with 50% of the sky obscured by the house!!!

Fot most practical purposes, even with old wobble turned on GPS was far more accurate that really required by leisure boaters. What happens if it does go down or more likely if your own kit goes down. If you have to rely on that kind of accuracy, you're screwed anyway. Try doing a compass fix on a chart & see how big the cocked hat is.

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tome

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Re: could you explain a bit further

John

Spot on, and the GPS receiver clock is adjusted to give the smallest possible cocked hat from the available ranges. This is the 'trick' used to solve the time uncertainty and allows us to build nice cheap receivers.

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tome

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Re: equipment redundancy

The very real dilemna of redundancy versus reliability, Matt /forums/images/icons/smile.gif

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Robin

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Re: equipment redundancy

Well 3 is what we carry, all fixed rather than handheld, on 2 separate battery banks. 3 sets wasn't a deliberate policy (2 would have been) but just sort of happened when 1 of the 2 went down on our main cruise one year and then after this was replaced FOC under warranty the following year another threw a wobbly just before we left for the same main cruise. The wobbly one was an ancient Shipmate that came with the boat and since we hadn't time to fix it before we left we bought a third one, the Shipmate was later repaired BUT is now throwing a wobbly again so I think it is time for it to be pensioned off altogether and yes it will be replaced so we keep a full compliment of 3! The reason for keeping 3 is now partly habit and quite simply because I don't want the inconvenience of a failure on one of our longer hols, added to which No 3 is the one which feeds the DSC and the Yeoman paper chart plotter (No1 is an aerial unit feeding the nav table plotter, No2 is integral to the cockpit electronic plotter).

So you see you were right, 3 is needed!

Before anyone jumps on me for not getting out the protracter, parallel rules and dividers and streaming the Walker log (yes I do have one at home....) or even the sextant and tables (yes I do but at home nowadays too....) I CAN do DR navigation but I prefer to chose when I do it rather than having it forced on me!

As a matter of interest how many do you carry???/forums/images/icons/smile.gif

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charles_reed

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Accident prone?

I've got 2 fixed GPS (well 1 GPS and a chartplotter) but only because the Garmin 65 was still working and had an anchor alarm. It's now 11 years of age (predating comfortably the Shipmate to which you refer) and is still soldiering on.

These repeated GPS failures you're suffering suggest either:-

1. Inherent electrical faults
2. An infestation of gremlins
3. Hubris resulting in Poseidon or Neptune having a definite down on you.

If you're interested I'll be only too glad to recommend the means of combatting these diverse problems.

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Robin

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Re: Accident prone?

Spread over 5 seasons and 2 boats we had the following failures:-

Raytheon dGPS 'aerial' feeding Raytheon plotter - failed with a known manufacturing fault, replaced FOC
Raytheon dGPS 'aerial' as above - failed after 2 years, (believed water ingress) replaced FOC with WAAS/EGNOS, currently still working...
Shipmate 5800 feeding Yeoman and DSC - lost almanac, internal battery failed (replaced)
Shipmate 5800 (same one) feeding Yeoman and DSC - finds a position OK initially but keeps dropping one or more sats then gets lost for periods of 5-10 minutes, then gets going again, then....

The Shipmate is positively the most user unfriendly piece of confusery I have ever owned, that it has survived dry so long has more to do with it being flush mounted and my wish not to have a 'hole' than anything else!

We also have a Navman 5500i with integral WAAS/EGNOS GPS, so far no problems, very nice colour plotter and very user friendly.

We also had a Philips AP9 on our old boat that worked well for years no problems, but it came with a user replaceable memory battery.

So our failed ones related to problems with the Raytheon heads, initially caused by an internal cable rubbing on a pcb then the replacement got damp, plus a Shipmate that is dying of old age and the stress of being sworn at by me..

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tsmyth

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Re: could you explain a bit further

I understand that the Earth is not a perfect sphere - flat at the top and bottom - and with various largish bumps.

How does GPS cater for this?

Ray

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Its_Only_Money

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Re: could you explain a bit further

In my case my Garmin tells me I'm generally at an altitude of about 13ft, is this the "out or round" reading for this part of the globe I wonder???

Oh and a stopped watch/clock is only correct twice a day but for an infinitestimally small period of time each time, far shorter a time than it would take to say "its the right time now" /forums/images/icons/smile.gif

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tome

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Re: could you explain a bit further

When you look closely, the earth looks more like a King Edward spud than a perfect sphere. This is why you have so many local datums programmed into your receiver. Each is designed to more closely model the local 'hump' of the earth. A spheroid can be mathematically modelled, a spud cannot.

In the UK, we use the OSGB36 datum, whereas in Europe (including Channel Islands) they use the ED50 datum. If you select the correct local datum, you will see your altitude close to zero when at sea level.

The native datum of GPS is WGS84. Because GPS is a global system, it has to attempt to use a single spheroid to represent the whole earth. This is nowhere near as good as using a custom local datum and means that sea level in some parts will be below the spheroid, and in others will be above. The receiver gets around this by converting the coordinates from WGS84 to your selected local datum.

Whenever using WGS84 as the local datum, be prepared to see some odd altitudes, even when at sea level.

Worth adding that whatever the horizontal accuracy of GPS, the vertical error will be about 1.5 times worse. The vertical axis is the weakest.

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tome

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Re: could you explain a bit further

I expect you antenna is a few metres above sea level, so 13 ft sounds about right taking errors into account. You are obviously using OSGB36 datum, try switching it to WGS84 and see what happens.

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Its_Only_Money

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Re: could you explain a bit further

Ummm....no, on WGS84, antenna about 2m above the waterline, curiously the alt figure doesn't seem to change much with the state of the tide....?

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tsmyth

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Re: could you explain a bit further

I am neither a mathmatician nor an electronics engineer, so please excuse my ignorance.

My first naive question is, is the position worked out by the satelite or the GPS? - I presume the latter.

Now, in my simple mind I can see how - given a perfect sphere - a postion can be calculated. I can also see that the datum (which is chart specific) must be taken into consideration. However, if one is in a hole in the spud, or a lump, how does the algorithm (if that is the right word) cater for this? Is it assumed that the area of the hole or lump is sufficiently large that it can be taken as part of the surface of a sphere?

Ray

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tome

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Re: could you explain a bit further

Correct, the position is calculated by the receiver. To do this, it needs to know the position of each of the satellites it is tracking.

The shape we use is an ellipsoid. This doesn't have to be a sphere - it is assumed to have some flattening so is defined by two axes. Imagine a rugby ball: if you measure the short axis (diameter) and the long axis you have defined its shape. A sphere is an ellipsoid with equal axes.

Now imagine the spud to be about the same size as the rugby ball. You want to plot the distance between two positions on one of the lumps on the spud. You can adjust both axes of the rugby ball to alter its size and shape, and twist it until somewhere the surface fits the lump. Once you have done this, you can do meaningful position comparisons, but only in a fairly local area.

The native spheroid of GPS is called WGS84 (World Geodetic System 1984). It's a rugby ball which best fits the whole earth, but not very well in many places. All positions are first calculated in WGS84. Now you need to transform the positions to your local datum. In the UK this is OSGB36 (Ordnance Survey of Great Britain 1936). This is done mathematically, and in order to transform from WGS 84 to OSGB36 you need to know the offset between the centres of the two rugby balls, the relative sizes of the axes, and how much you have twisted them in each of the 3 axes.

This is generally done with a 7 parameter datum shift, and if you want to look at the maths involved in the transformation google on Bursa Wolf or Molodensky.

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